Ammo armoured vehicles

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Jack_Dionne

Any APC can act as an ammo carrier in game terms. Have you ever been in any type of APC?

I doubt that trying to use, say, a BTR-60PB to resupply heavy arty ammo would be all that practical for example. But let's assume it isn't an issue. What I was underscoring previously is that several nations/organizations still simply don't have APCs in first place, period. What sort of armored resupply vehicle do you suggest for them?

[Jack_Dionne]

I have been in a modified BTR (the Polish contingent uses them) in the Middle East as part of UNDOF and I can tell you they are large and lots of room.

As far as some nationalities not having any APC that’s not the issue I am bringing to light. Please understand I am not trying to get into a pissing contest on this issue just hoping for a bit of change that’s all.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Jack_Dionne

I have been in a modified BTR (the Polish contingent uses them) in the Middle East as part of UNDOF and I can tell you they are large and lots of room.

Room would not be an issue in fact.What I was thinking about was the hatches arrangement on the original models.Same for the BTR-50, no easy way to get heavy or bulky items in and out even if space inside is abundant. I am not saying that's physically impossible but I doubt the practicality.

As far as some nationalities not having any APC that’s not the issue I am bringing to light

You were saying previously that all nationalities should have armored ammo carriers. That could be accomplished by making ammo carrier variant of APCs available. But if there are no APCs then what should be used?

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Marcello

Room would not be an issue in fact.What I was thinking about was the hatches arrangement on the original models.Same for the BTR-50, no easy way to get heavy or bulky items in and out even if space inside is abundant. I am not saying that's physically impossible but I doubt the practicality.

You were saying previously that all nationalities should have armored ammo carriers. That could be accomplished by making ammo carrier variant of APCs available. But if there are no APCs then what should be used?

The issue with ammo is the bulk and weight of the packages. When simply dumped in a crew compartment with no proper preparation, these large heavy lumps will fly about like loose rocks and pulverise any crew.

Dedicated ammo carriers have proper stowage arrangements for the ammo built in, unlike the normal APC. They also do not carry crew inside.

When in the mortar platoon in my bn, ammo went in the 1/4(?) ton trailers the land rovers pulled, tied down and with a tarp on top. Crew and bits went in the rover.

When doing some arty wotk at OTC, some 4-tonners were proper arty tows, and had ammo bays in the sides of the truck. Crew went in the flatbed, gun hitched on the back. When using a regular 4-tonner to shift ammo, it was either ammo alone on the flatbed (tied down) with no personnel mixed in it, or we made a "well" at the front of the flatbed for a few boxes of shells and charges, and tied a barrier of ropes across the seats to stop the boxes breaking loose and squishing the detachment. But that was only approved for use on the metalled road to the firing position, and very limited (flat) off-road from the road to the firing position, not for any really hairy (bouncy) cross-country work.

Nations that don't have any sort of dedicated armoured vehicle for resupply, simply will not have them. End of.

Andy

[Jack_Dionne]

Originally Posted by Marcello

Actually it's not that trivial for a couple of reasons. From the game guide:

1) A dedicated ammo carrier is much more effective in the game than loading an ammo cannister in an APC; it can resupply artillery for example. This again has some parallel in reality.
2) Ammo cannisters or truck are generic and thus easier to handle. It would take quite a bit of work to find out if country X or Y has actually some armored ammo carrier variant (believe me, this sort of info is not easy to come by) and if not which APCs should be selected for such job. It might be worthwhile for China or India. Tanzania or Paraguay, not so much (and good luck finding info on them)
3) I will repeat again, not every country has armored vehicles in service that could, even in a pinch, used for such purpose.

Seems odd though, how an M113 can be used as an ammo carrier when you compare its size to other APC of similar size from different countries.
How about levelling the playing field.

How many people can say they have even been in an APC let alone compare something they have never actually been in.

My only goal is the same as everyone else, to contribute in a way to make this game as good as it can be, given it's limitations.

[Imp]

Seems odd though, how an M113 can be used as an ammo carrier when you compare its size to other APC of similar size from different countries.

The M113 ammo is a dedicated conversion try googing & probably relativly straight forward as its a tin box on tracks but as mentioned before size is not the issue they could all carry some its access as in ease of un/loading & securing it. Nice hatch arrangement not a problem but look at some APCs the means of egress is not great. If you wanted to push it could have that tops up at 25% of the rate of a dedicated vehicle & always goes bang if its hit but then you would not buy it. Strangely using the APC to carry an ammo cannister sort of simulates this. The truth is in game terms cant see the point they are a very rare casualty you dont try & reload when under fire its a job done out of harms way.

[Jack_Dionne]

Originally Posted by Imp

The M113 ammo is a dedicated conversion try googing & probably relativly straight forward as its a tin box on tracks but as mentioned before size is not the issue they could all carry some its access as in ease of un/loading & securing it. Nice hatch arrangement not a problem but look at some APCs the means of egress is not great. If you wanted to push it could have that tops up at 25% of the rate of a dedicated vehicle & always goes bang if its hit but then you would not buy it. Strangely using the APC to carry an ammo cannister sort of simulates this. The truth is in game terms cant see the point they are a very rare casualty you dont try & reload when under fire its a job done out of harms way.

I guess we will have to agree on disagreeing. I am still standing by my argument that in game terms it’s totally doable.

[Imp]

I guess we will have to agree on disagreeing. I am still standing by my argument that in game terms it’s totally doable

Strange statement or I am misreading, yes its doable so is an armored penguin for that matter just not realistic according to people I trust to know. Your initial comment was something like for play balance all nations should have one. By that rational they should all have APCs attack helos CM arty etc. Sorry not trying to be antogonistic & yes it is a game but the sides have the equipment they field & balance is achieved by points allocation as a huge nod to that fact.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Jack_Dionne

Seems odd though, how an M113 can be used as an ammo carrier when you compare its size to other APC of similar size from different countries.
How about levelling the playing field.

There is just only one M113 ammo carrier in the game, in the iranian OOB. It may well be a mistake or perhaps the iranians did actually convert some of them with proper stowage (and as noted the type is inherently more suitable than others for this purpose).I know from experience this sort of info isn't easy to come by...
Otherwise in the game as in real life the standard ammo carrier variant of the M113 is the M548, which is basically an unarmored truck on tracks. There are a few MT-LBs, whose prime mover variant has some racks for artillery ammunition if I rememeber correctly, so it could indeed be used for ammo resupply in a pinch.And so on.

Originally Posted by Jack_Dionne

How many people can say they have even been in an APC let alone compare something they have never actually been in.

So you have been in APC and you tell us it's roomy. Well, actually nobody here has disputed that. A guy who has actually dealt with the issue at hand, ammo stowage, tells us:

The issue with ammo is the bulk and weight of the packages. When simply dumped in a crew compartment with no proper preparation, these large heavy lumps will fly about like loose rocks and pulverise any crew.

Which, if you think about it, makes perfect sense. A single 152/155mm shell weighs more than 40kg for example, you definitively are not going to just stack a bunch of them in the troops compartment and then merrily drive around...

[Marek_Tucan]

Originally Posted by Jack_Dionne

I have been in a modified BTR (the Polish contingent uses them) in the Middle East as part of UNDOF and I can tell you they are large and lots of room.

I do not believe Poland used ANY wheeled BTR except command variant of 60. You most likely were in a modernised OT-64 SKOT, which is a totally different best with larger internal volume (originally, it was to carry 15 dismounts).

Edit: From the UNDOF official site it seems though that UNDOF uses only M113s and Finnish SISU PASI APCs, which are gradually replaced by RG32M.