Reverse Communion Confusion

[chrispedersen]

A
B
C
D
E


Are all casters. Order matters very much. If A casts "Pots" before E has cast "communion slave", e won't get the bonus.

Similarly, if B is a communion master and casts "blade wind" C, D, and E will take no action that turn.

B has to fire a crossbow etc in order for CDE to do something.

[Adam J]

Thanks Chris, I knew the ordering was relevant for receiving the bonuses from spells (seems pretty intuitive that someone won't receive the benefits before the spell is even cast), but I didn't realize that the slaves would sit (or cast crappy holy spells as the case may be) if the communion master already cast first. So basically for a reverse communion to work you need your master to either not cast spells or act last in the round?

[Gregstrom]

That's exactly it. Mages cast in the order they appear in the tactics screen, so it's easy to set up a communion to work the way you want.

[thejeff]

But they shouldn't cast holy spells, if they act after a Master. They shouldn't do anything.
That's what I don't understand about this.

Unless.... I have a vague memory about weirdness with priests and quickness. You didn't have a W9 bless did you?

[Stagger Lee]

Originally Posted by Adam J

but I didn't realize that the slaves would sit (or cast crappy holy spells as the case may be) if the communion master already cast first. So basically for a reverse communion to work you need your master to either not cast spells or act last in the round?

The slaves won't cast holy spells if a master has cast, they will simply absorb fatigue for the master. I did some testing with Marverni Druids in a similar configuration to what you described. I scripted:

8 slaves (communion slave;flying shards;blade wind;blade wind;blade wind), and
2 masters (communion master;pots/summon earth;blade wind; blade wind;blade wind)

The flying shards was just to keep them all doing the same thing that round. Rounds 3 and 4 had everyone throwing blade wind. Round five was mostly blade wind. Fatigue enters the calculation in this round.

My understanding of fatigue distribution would give you something like this:

Where E2 is the base for slaves and masters, masters are boosted 3E for 8 slaves, + 1E for pots or summon earth, so masters can cast blade wind without problem. And slaves are actually boosted 2 from pots & summon earth, so they can all cast + 3 for fatigue from 8 slaves. So fatigue cost/N+1 (N = 7-3)

Each master casting blade wind -> 80 fatigue * 2(masters) = 160 / 8(slaves) = 20 * (1/N+1) = 20/5 fatigue/trn = 4

And for their own casting -> 80*(1/5)= 16

Giving each slave 20 fatigue/turn. But that doesn't quite work. I think they probably don't get the +3 communion bonus when doing their own fatigue calculation.

So for their own casting -> 80*(1/2)= 40

total about 44 fatigue/turn.

This would explain why some but not all stopped casting blade wind on round five. The druids have at least 50% chance of being E3 Which would drastically improve their fatigue score, and allow more castings. I did not base anything in my tests on native E level, since everyone should have been able to cast the spell. The only determining factor was who came first in the setup screen, the two masters being the bottom two.

[Stagger Lee]

Originally Posted by thejeff

But they shouldn't cast holy spells, if they act after a Master. They shouldn't do anything.
That's what I don't understand about this.

Unless.... I have a vague memory about weirdness with priests and quickness. You didn't have a W9 bless did you?

In my first tests, I didn't have them casting flying shards on round two, blade wind instead. Since many of them were not capable, they threw out all sorts of holy spells and other low fatigue stuff.

[Adam J]

I had them all acting after one of the masters, so that clears up one mystery. That seems like any extremely wierd rule that they won't cast if the master casts first, but I guess it's an attempt to help with fatigue (but knowledgable scripting will do that better, so its a bit paternalistic). I don't think that particular ordering issue is in Baalz extremely handy guide. I didn't have a w9 bless, so I don't know why they felt free to cast crappy holy spells, but they certainly did. And thanks for the calculations Stagger Lee, I had already estimated I'd get only two (or if really lucky three) bladewind out of each slave thanks to the 40 fatigue from each casting.

[thejeff]

Stagger Lee: Yes. Your example works the way I understand it. And you are correct that slaves only get the communion bonus for fatigue from the master's spells, not their own.

But that doesn't match Adam's report, that the slaves never cast Bladewind, but did cast holy spells instead.

[thejeff]

The original intent of Communion was to boost the masters and not have the slaves cast at all. No reverse communions. That they work is essentially a bug. It's a bit of unintended weirdness that has become part of the game.


If you catch them doing that again, save the turn. Maybe someone can make something of it if they can duplicate/experiment with it.

[Stagger Lee]

Originally Posted by Adam J

I had them all acting after one of the masters, so that clears up one mystery. That seems like any extremely wierd rule that they won't cast if the master casts first, but I guess it's an attempt to help with fatigue (but knowledgable scripting will do that better, so its a bit paternalistic). I don't think that particular ordering issue is in Baalz extremely handy guide. I didn't have a w9 bless, so I don't know why they felt free to cast crappy holy spells, but they certainly did. And thanks for the calculations Stagger Lee, I had already estimated I'd get only two (or if really lucky three) bladewind out of each slave thanks to the 40 fatigue from each casting.

Yes, I think it is what could be called an exploit. Although not a cheap one. I have killed many of my own mages underestimating fatigue accumulation on slaves.

Originally Posted by Baalz

Reverse communion - 2 or 3 masters then as many cheap slaves as you can muster. Your masters will cast power of the spheres then whatever other booster is appropriate (phoenix power, etc). For air spells you can use the third master to cast storm so that air power is an option. Now, all your slaves have been boosted 2 levels, so they can cast fun things like falling fire, thunderstrike, etc. Even lowly S1 mages are now capable of Soul Slaying. The fun thing about this one is it's a great way to use all those cheap researchers you've got with no other preparation. Leading a fight with three rounds of 10X Falling Fires makes quite a difference considering how cheap the mages are. Note, this communion takes advantage of one of the quirks of the communion, the fact that slaves can cast spells so long as they act sequentially before all masters in the turn sequence. Commanders resolve their orders in the same order that they're listed in the strategic screen. If for whatever reason you're not comfortable trying to get this order right you can have the masters retreat after casting the buffs - the buffs remain in effect. Note, the communion bonus does not affect slaves casting by themselves, only the buffs the masters cast help. Apparently the slaves are acting by themselves outside the communion.

Credit where credit is due!