River crossing battle tactics

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Imp

Wait till you get to modern times a good scout vehicle & passenger can cost you 300 points & may get caught out but can be worth every point.

Well - the BTR battalion would not be completely expendable - 3 companies allows for the rush, to take casualties (esp in the first 2 that will take and hold the pocket).
3rd company as I stated above - reserve following behind in case of problems. If it is not needed, then you have a spare formation to use.

The battered first BTR coy will likely have its infantry left as guardians of the initial salient. Any surviving BTR-60 of the company woud take up duties as passenger ferries for follow-on leg grunt formations.

2nd company would hopefully not be too battered - any depleted platoons could act as for Coy 1. Any whole ones could aid the exploitation (the APC maybe acting as ferries for a while).

And as I said in a later post - the BTR rush is probably something I would consider in a battle generator game. In other words, where you have a free pick of all your forces.

Andys rush is I think based on BTRs capabilities as in fast both on land & in the water one of the reasons I said Russia is a good side to try a modern crossing with.

Yep. fast on land, so they get to the crossing site quickly. Fast on water as well, so they don't take too long to cross over. Some armour and armament, and some night vision (later models). And reasonably cheap. The PB model is quite dangerous to USA/UK with its 14.5 and IR searchlight in the M113/FV432 era (60s and 70s). Can also be stuffed with a few extra small RPG teams over and above the platoon troops, especially the open or flat-topped early models (114 or 112 lift capability).

The BTR50 is just too slow, and not well armed. Would be useful as a passenger ferry here once it got to the river if the early P model with 120 capacity - half a platoon.

Cheers
Andy

[Graeme]

Ive got the mapped prepped, 60 turns and 5 visi. V hexes are centrally just across the river then on two hills overlooking a road. Yep Im going to have a go with the rush tactic, although scaled down a bit as I only have 1600 spt pts. 3 groups of 6 BTR60PB's with Red Guard. Ill also do a couple of fake crossings, one with Reserve inf and one with nothing in K61's. Also have air spt so Ill land some paras behind the lines to hunt arty and also my amphib with sniper with 40 vis/TI. Whatever is left on off map arty or Koksan SPA's.

Ill drop my core force down river after securing the crossing with my core Paras and Hinds. Hopefully the air para drop on turn 0 will reveal some AA to avoid.

[Marcello]

I would add that with North Korea you have an additional option for crossing rivers.
The GSP ferry you can buy in the Misc section from 1969 onwards.
It has the same land speed of a barge carrier, some armor (it is a bit of a necessary fudge but it means it have a chance against artillery) and can move both on land and on water (albeit a bit slower than a barge in water) without the need to be loaded and offloaded.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Imp

Works better probably vs AI than a human if you let it see some units there is a good chance it will call arty in.



Go for a pure Infantry/Mech assault with at least 4 ATGMs per Co to take out vehicles on the other side & pray a lot.

Actually - that is the approach I had forgotten. If you can dominate the far bank with MBT-killing weaponry, then go for as flat a map as you can, and broad daylight (or pure night if you have a night fighting advantage, esp in TI). Plan on exterminating his exposed key weapons systems (AFV, ATGM and bunkers in the main) with your dominating direct fire weaponry.

Think Egypt v Israel in 1973 forex. Coalition v Iraq. Have a few T-62/M1/Challenger pre-placed (or in reserve) dominating the crossing zone when deployed. Buy loads of saggers, preplace or walk forwards to dominate. Once set up to your satisfaction, move some scout cars about to trigger firing, and then whack the revealed shooters with massed ATGM and/or MBT fires.

Don't fire barrages of arty then - it may obscure some LOS to the enemy MBT. Keep it in reserve for the crossing attempt post dealing with his shooters.

Once the key defending units are wrecked, then putter over the river to sweep up to your hearts content with the usual arty support to deal with any remaining infantry (but you will need less indirect arty with the direct fire dominance approach).

Should be good especially on a desert map with just a few little bumps of hills about.

Not for the totally underdog player though. NK could probably do it pre M1 Abrams, with a sagger barrage?. Not so much once those beasts are common. You need a reliable tank-killer ATGM and/or MBT that are at least evens to his.

Cheers
Andy

[Graeme]

Originally Posted by Marcello

I would add that with North Korea you have an additional option for crossing rivers.
The GSP ferry you can buy in the Misc section from 1969 onwards.
It has the same land speed of a barge carrier, some armor (it is a bit of a necessary fudge but it means it have a chance against artillery) and can move both on land and on water (albeit a bit slower than a barge in water) without the need to be loaded and offloaded.

Yep Ive got 6 of these GSP ferries and 6 Barge carriers as back up. Its looking good though, Ive got my light tanks across and Im just sending over my Pokpung and Chonma ho's.

Its turn 40 of 60 and the battle has unfolded. I used a couple of fake crossings, one empty and one with cheap fodder infantry which got mauled by Javelins and arty. My scaled down BTR rush combined with Para air drop and Paras and Hinds was also a bit mauled. BTRs were blown out of the water by Javelins.

The Paras and Hinds did better and were able to get a foot hold. Strangely the enemy(US 2010) hasnt got any anti air so my Hinds had free reign, Ive took out all their 81 and 60mm mortars and no off map arty is coming down from them. Also got some amphib inf across and was able to expand the landing zone and move up towards the objectives meeting little resistance, before moving over the engineers and light inf, followed by core APC's. Hinds retreated from ground fire now.

Ive took out a lot of Javelins but there are still one or two around. Ive took the two objectives/groups of hexes near the river and was pushing onto the third inland but had a few tanks and apcs taken out by 1 Javelin. Running out of arty as well.

[Graeme]

[quote=Mobhack;752701]

Originally Posted by Imp

Not for the totally underdog player though. NK could probably do it pre M1 Abrams, with a sagger barrage?. Not so much once those beasts are common. You need a reliable tank-killer ATGM and/or MBT that are at least evens to his.

Cheers
Andy

I use the Fagot ATGM, its handy and accurate but struggles to penetrate a K1 tank(similar to Abrams). Usually have to gang up on them with inf, button them and then bring a Chonma or Pokpung ho to finish it off. I was looking forward to the challenge of an Abrams but the US didnt use armor in this crossing battle.

Just finished. Marginal Victory, Im quite pleased with that. 6400 pts to 1600 US.

I was bogged down by a stiff counter by the two hex objective groups and wasnt able to move out. Lost a few APC's and light tanks and mixed infantry and was unable to support with my MBT's as there were too many Javelins about. Was able to pin the enemy down and with arty and SU-7 jets then able to sneak an APC onto the last hex group. After battle map showed I had the enemy bottled up and it finished 2 turns early.

Thanks for the tactics everyone, was able to use a combination of them to beat the AI.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Graeme

The enemy does have a big tech adv, its 2010 and Ive just struggled but won against the South in a 2 visibility battle where they have more and better vision/TI. Ill try and locate first as well with my Hind gunships and Paras + Para FO, then leather them with my artillery and also a smoke screen, should N Korean 240mm MRL(rockets) work as good as these Russian flame rockets?

This is, I think, an interesting point that you inadvertently raise. The current 240mm rounds are available only in HE variety but I overlooked that an incendiary one is available according to Jane's, I will research it further.
It would certainly be a worthwhile addition to compensate for other north korean deficiencies especially as the P'okpoong-ho, one of the very few remaining high tech assets, will have to be toned down considerably.
You will probably have to fight in a way not much different from what the north koreans would fight, mainly with infantry, special forces and tons of artillery; armor would be used in a limited and careful way, as without TI and with insufficient armor and firepower tanks would become tracked coffins really fast.

[Graeme]

Originally Posted by Marcello

This is, I think, an interesting point that you inadvertently raise. The current 240mm rounds are available only in HE variety but I overlooked that an incendiary one is available according to Jane's, I will research it further.
It would certainly be a worthwhile addition to compensate for other north korean deficiencies especially as the P'okpoong-ho, one of the very few remaining high tech assets, will have to be toned down considerably.
You will probably have to fight in a way not much different from what the north koreans would fight, mainly with infantry, special forces and tons of artillery; armor would be used in a limited and careful way, as without TI and with insufficient armor and firepower tanks would become tracked coffins really fast.

Would be nice to have the extra firepower, I checked after what Imp said, I think he means the Smerch MRL 300mm with 90 kill 12 warhead, I have a M1991 240mm 43/9 .

Would be a shame to lessen the Pokpung ho as its quite formidable but if its for realism then fair play.

Its the only tank that can take a hit and has decent vision. But its expensive and I have only got 4, having built up the force with the leftover repair points, I used Harder to simulate the lack of spares and NK economy. The Chonma Hos have a decent gun but get ripped apart with one shot from a K1 and the light tanks are only for ranged infantry fighting if there is no anti tank around.

Its been a good game, a bit of a challenge. Its all infantry like you say with the Light inf being my favourite all round unit. Basically I use plenty of arty, then light inf and just use rifle sections to hold ground and the Fagot ATGM. The snipers with 40 vision are useful and Im a big fan of the Koksan SPA. Tanks are just used to peep over the hill when the enemy is suppressed and have a crack at their armor. Using the Hinds and Paras to terrorise the enemy arty behind the lines.

Ive had 5 battles so far against US and SK, all marginal victories.

[Imp]

I was refering to TOS-1s which are more infantry & light armour killers than the Smerch mentioned but fires block LOS if get enough going even for TI units.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Imp

I was refering to TOS-1s which are more infantry & light armour killers than the Smerch mentioned but fires block LOS if get enough going even for TI units.

I had forgotten the possibility of using incendiary weapons as possible thermal blockers as a tactic - nice idea!.

Sufficient depth of fire hexes does work like smoke against these vision devices. (I forget if it is 3 hexes of large fires or 4?).

Enemy would have to go through the firewall, or at least into it to see through. This could be a warming experience!.

If you have these in MRL deliverable form then you can build up a patch of fire that the hi-tech adversary will find inconvenient. It may need a few doses to get the firewall deep enough to be reliable. Air napalm is more variable (you would need a lot of napalm planes, and they are subject to AAA - some air forces do have access to bombers with multiple FAE or napalm, but these get laid in a single strip - so 3 such runs would have to be done in parallel to make a useful firewall (?)).

Problem would be if the fire area has to be placed somewhere that you may want to eventually cross (esp if you will need to use dismounts there!).

So "Imp's firewall" is a limited usage tactic, but possibly useful in the right circumstances.

Cheers
Andy