Fixes for the iraqi OOB

[DRG]

If you want to know what the "standard" will be for units of Russian origin look at the Russian OOB. When it conflicts with other nations I change the other nations with very few exceptions ( I have already corrected a couple of minor inconsistencies in the Russian OOB this year but these were all fixed a couple years back within the limitations of the game code )

If you want to debate those values I can point you to the Russians who provided the information and you can debate the issue with them and get back to me then I'll decide if it's worthwhile.

In some cases those vehicles carry a specialist unit, in others it's a couple of scout sections that cannot be reduced to 5 from 6 men and in the end it really all matters about this . .....||.... . much at the end of a battle.

....however, in this case I will review the issue again when I get to it but as I already noted in another thread there is little chance now that every "error" report issued in this latest feeding frenzy will be addressed this time around.



Don

[Pibwl]

To make it clear: only BMD issue concerns the Russian oob directly.
As for BMP, I can only guess, that not all the vehicle's capacity (2+9) was actually used, as it was in case of Poland and Czechoslovakia, but it was only for information. Moreover, I have a sketch of East German usage in a book, which shows 9 men only seated in BMP ("als Fahrzeug der mot. Schuetzengruppe" - I don't know German terminology well).

As a point of interest, I attach cross-sections of BMD-1.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Unit 551 BM-14 SP has a picture of BM-21 - proper is 29336 or 65362.

Michal

[Pibwl]

227 BRDM-2 Konkurs - icon should be 2341

260 BRDM-2 Malutka - icon should be 2321

Michal

[Pibwl]

042 ZSU-57-2 - according to a Polish article [nTW 4/2006], first were bought in early 1970s (now: 1/65).

[Marcello]

Unit 963 EC-635
Armament in slot 2 changed to an additional weapon n. 173 12.7mm MG. Ammo increased as in slot 1

It now appears from pictures that the gun pods are actually carried in pairs. Besides it has occurred to me that the 22 rockets pod might be for dedicated gunships rather than a light armed/recon helo. So far only gunpods and possibly ATGMs have been displayed.

Weapon n. 178 30mm GSh-30
Currently unused it could be overwritten with weapon n.187 4x 80mm S-8 from russian OOB


Unit 962 Mi-17C

-Armament in slots 1-2 changed to weapon n. 35 7.62mm PKMS MMG
-Armament in slots 3-4 changed to the aforementioned S-8 rockets, 10 HE round per slot and the AP rounds deleted.

The above seems the usual armament fit from pictures

[Pibwl]

150 Su-7BMK - earliest date of delivery found in Internet is 1968 (now 1/67), however according to a Polish monograph article on Su-7 [nTW 2/1997], first were delivered in 1972. It could carry 4 x500 kg bombs (now 4x250 kg). Better icon is 2158 - Iraqi Su-7 wore a camouflage (pictures http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww3/a/271/19/0 )

151 Su-7BMK - usage from 1968 (or 1972) and icon - see above.

152 Su-17MK-4 - should be named Su-22M4 (export version of Soviet Su-17M4). In addition to guided missiles, it can carry 2-4 bombs 250 kg.

154, 155 Su-20 - better picture of Su-20 (although Polish) is 29126 - current one 11152 are later Su-17(22)M3/4, with a "hump" behind a cab.

156 Su-22M-4 - now available from 1/74 - it should be in fact earlier model Su-22M (production of Su-22M-4 started in 1983). I don't know when Iraq received Su-22M, but they were produced and exported from 1979, so 1/79 should be earliest date. In addition to missiles it could carry eg. 2x250kg bombs.

Iraq could also use Su-22M with 1 Kh-28 ARM (weapon #209 in Russian oob), used from some 1984 to some 1997.

Su-20s have radio RF, Su-22s - laser RF

251 L-29 Delfin - it's very doubtful, if it could carry 250 kg bombs - according to Czech page http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/6443 , 2x100 kg.

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

154, 155 Su-20 - better picture of Su-20 (although Polish) is 29126 - current one 11152 are later Su-17(22)M3/4, with a "hump" behind a cab.

Two things

1/ IDK which version of the Iraqi OOB you using because units 154 and 155 use PIC 11119 and have NEVER used PIC 11152. I think you're looking at Polish OOB unit 154. That uses 11152 ( see 2/ )

2/ I have already replaced 1/10th of the photos in the game so comments about a "better picture" generally do not apply ESPECIALLY if the photo is poor quality or looks like it dates back to SP2. In this case 11152 and about 600 others have already been replaced.


Don

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

150 Su-7BMK - earliest date of delivery found in Internet is 1968 (now 1/67), however according to a Polish monograph article on Su-7 [nTW 2/1997], first were delivered in 1972. It could carry 4 x500 kg bombs (now 4x250 kg). Better icon is 2158 - Iraqi Su-7 wore a camouflage (pictures http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww3/a/271/19/0 )

Perhaps it could carry that much but 4 x 250 is more sensible, as there is question of under what loadout configuration and operational range such 4 x 500 load was possible. If they had to give up the underbelly fuel tanks then it was a non start for most practical applications. Were the outer wing hardpoints rated for 500kg bombs? I vaguely recall this not being the case but I will have to check.

152 Su-17MK-4 - should be named Su-22M4 (export version of Soviet Su-17M4). In addition to guided missiles, it can carry 2-4 bombs 250 kg.

As far as I have read bombs were probably not carried together with Kh-29. The actual load was something like one kh-29, an ECM pod, a drop tank and UB-32 rocket pod used as counterweight of sort.

156 Su-22M-4 - now available from 1/74 - it should be in fact earlier model Su-22M (production of Su-22M-4 started in 1983). I don't know when Iraq received Su-22M, but they were produced and exported from 1979, so 1/79 should be earliest date. In addition to missiles it could carry eg. 2x250kg bombs

Same as above except that the missile in question was used operationally very few times, perhaps just once.

Iraq could also use Su-22M with 1 Kh-28 ARM (weapon #209 in Russian oob), used from some 1984 to some 1997.

This would in fact be the most correct decision as the Kh-28 was pretty much the only ARM used by the iraqi air force for dedicated SEAD missions, even if some others types were on stock. It is however a bit more complicated than that, because of the shortage of weapon slots. I would suggest something along the lines of this:

1) Weapon n. 217 ARMAT ARM overwritten with weapon n. 216 Kh-28 ARM from Russian OOB

2) Unit 167 MIrage F-1EQ overwritten with a clone of unit 156 SU-22M-4 suitably reclassed as class 214 SEAD Aircraft and armed with one Kh-28. It could be renamed SU-22M3 and have vision reduced to zero.

3)Formation 139 SEAD Plane
To be deleted as it currently uses a F-16 armed ARMAT.
The US has been willing to sell Iraq only a fairly limited range of air to ground ordnance: only Maverick missiles, Paveway LGBs, Mk 82 and Mk 84 bombs have been offered/sold. It is a good bet that SEAD weapons are not probably going to be in the cards before 2020

Formation n. 138 is available from 1/1979 to 4/2003. This might warrant some tweaking in the future but it should be good enough for the time being, unless someone has better info.

[Suhiir]

I recall reading once that an F-4 could get off the ground carrying 24 x 500# bombs. And as long as the target was at the far end of the runway it had the operational range with that load to bomb it.

For the most part aircraft carry about half what they are capable of getting off the ground with because they need fuel to get to the target and loiter till they're called in. And getting home after is always nice too.