Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indochina. - Page 2

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #1 December 25th, 2011, 03:30 AM

To add my two cents; I've also found several references to a "battle" in Dec. 1950 but as noted a month doesn't matter. What does is a year or two discrepancy as to when it was fielded by the French in the game. At Jan 1951 the case can be made for a change and the following refs will support your claim as to the planes that carried it for the French. I have other obligations to the "Boss" if he has time for them in Feb. so I can't take this on as noted already until the 2012/2013 campaign begins at the earliest. For the french wings site you might need to use the translator for the English version also for the Dien Bien Phu folks see the photo section and you'll know which one got my attention for the scenario.

http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/frcoin.html
http://www.ffaa.net/history/wars-ope.../indochina.htm
http://www.aircraftcarrier.name/fran...hes/index.html
http://www.frenchwings.net/
http://www.frenchwings.net/indochina/gallery/index.php

I hear a noise on my roof, I better get to bed!!

Regards,
Pat

Palle · #2 December 25th, 2011, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scJazz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suhiir

For all intents and purposes napalm is just another bomb. Anything that can carry a bomb can carry it. That said it's obviously best used by low-level attack craft rather then traditional bombers.
It would be more a question of "When did they get napalm to drop?" then "When did they get Corsairs?"

I suspect they bought left-over US stuff then eventually made their own once they realized how useful it was in jungles.

Actually, they more or less got in theater leftovers from Korea. OMFG it has a prop. Give it to the French in exchange for wine!

Ha ha ha ha.
The Indochina War is an intriguing study and struggle. Anyone thinking the French do not know war, should study it a bit.

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #3 December 29th, 2011, 04:53 AM

Don,
Simply no; was just answering the questions directly from the refs I provided. To the others just "threw that out there" about a campaign approach, as I indicated I have no desire to get into the technical aspects of the game or design. I simply look at it from the operator level which just offers a different perspective and hopefully insight into the workings of the game. As I was involved in a Navy project on a Submarine WSM it was my job along with a handful of others to evaluate the operability and real world usefulness of the software that was meant to be helpful and developed in a lab. Submarines, Ships, MPA and associated systems don't operate in a lab. This I hope will help some to better understand where my "head is at" when it comes to some of the issues I've brought up or have supported and have been supported on (Thank You!). The approach might be different and sometimes confusing but, what is important here is that the end result for everyone is that the game gets better for all as much as is possible within the architecture of it. Anyway enough said

, I need some rack.

Regards,
Pat

Pibwl · #4 January 3rd, 2012, 09:30 PM

Speaking of France, here are my notes:

#005 AMX-13 - is there a difference from 001 unit?... There might be more SD shots for all AMX-13s, since it had 4 tubes, but carried 12 smoke grenades in all (according to 1967 Armour in Profile No.12 book)

#008, 009 AMX-13/SS-11 - according to Armour in Profile, their ammunition for gun was lowered - 33 rounds.

#045, 46 AMX-105/50 - there are known photos with AAT AAMG http://www.chars-francais.net/new/in...=681&Itemid=36
I don't know if it was standard.

#064 SAS Jeep - better picture might be 36033 or 36867

#073 Panhard EBR 51 - proper pic is 6560 (early model with FL-11 turret)

#075 Ferret Mk 1 - I don't know how about Mk 1, but the French for sure used Mk 2/3 turreted version (there is a photo from Algeria from 1964).

#086, 087 M3A1Halftrack - better pic is 56805 (M3A1 with gun ring). There should be space in name. BTW, icon 538 should have a ring on a right side, I think.

#089 AMX VCI - better picture for 12.7 AAMG is 6088

#091 AMX VCI - correct picture for 7.5mm CMG (turret) is 6059

#81, 107 Jeep - French Jeeps (mostly Hotchkiss M201) carried 7.7mm AA52 MG as a standard (introduced in the 1950s).

#108 Delahaye - precise name of this Jeep-like vehicle is VLR-D, but it was produced only from 1951 (according to Military jeep: 1940 onwards book). Production ceased around 1956, so they were probably used a bit longer (now: 1/46-12/57).

#112, 315, 383 Bazooka Team - proper picture for Super Bazooka M20 is 23550

#113 57mm RCL - correct pic is 9074 or 12072. Current is 75mm M20 (used in the game mostly as M40)

#160, 161, 218-220, 904, 971 all Rafale should have picture 6159 (they have Mirage III now)

#165 B-26 Marauder - correct pic is 9193 (now it's Invader)

#173, 174 T6G Tomcat - correct pic is 9143 (T-6 Harvard, now it's T-28)

#181 F-84F - correct pic is 9134 (now it's F-84G)

#221 F-8E Crusader - I've proposed a picture of the French F-8, eg. 010.

#222 Junker - is the name correct?..

#278, 279 Goumiers, 284 Eclaireurs moi, 285 Native Scouts - proper pic for .303 Lee Enfield is 7096

#291 Armoured Truck - better picture seems 64534

#316 57mm RCL - as #113

#384, 402 Alpine Inf-AT - picture used for LRAC is 6117

#439, 440 VTT PM 81mm, 120mm - better pic for SP-mortars with external 12.7mm is 6088

#469 2.5 Ton GMC - proper pic for GMS is 23578

#481-487 H34 Pirate - better picture of specifically French H-34 is 6483

#511-512 SA 116 Pirate, WW SA 116 - I couldn't find "SA 116" designation in the Web. H-34 Pirate might be safer?..

Formations:
#005 AMX13/SS11 Pl - according to Armour in profile no.12, there were four AMX-13/SS11 in a platoon.

Regards
Michal

Mobhack · #5 January 4th, 2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Speaking of France, here are my notes:

#005 AMX-13 - is there a difference from 001 unit?... There might be more SD shots for all AMX-13s, since it had 4 tubes, but carried 12 smoke grenades in all (according to 1967 Armour in Profile No.12 book)

#008, 009 AMX-13/SS-11 - according to Armour in Profile, their ammunition for gun was lowered - 33 rounds.

#045, 46 AMX-105/50 - there are known photos with AAT AAMG http://www.chars-francais.net/new/in...=681&Itemid=36
I don't know if it was standard.

#064 SAS Jeep - better picture might be 36033 or 36867

#073 Panhard EBR 51 - proper pic is 6560 (early model with FL-11 turret)

#075 Ferret Mk 1 - I don't know how about Mk 1, but the French for sure used Mk 2/3 turreted version (there is a photo from Algeria from 1964).

#086, 087 M3A1Halftrack - better pic is 56805 (M3A1 with gun ring). There should be space in name. BTW, icon 538 should have a ring on a right side, I think.

#089 AMX VCI - better picture for 12.7 AAMG is 6088

#091 AMX VCI - correct picture for 7.5mm CMG (turret) is 6059

#81, 107 Jeep - French Jeeps (mostly Hotchkiss M201) carried 7.7mm AA52 MG as a standard (introduced in the 1950s).

#108 Delahaye - precise name of this Jeep-like vehicle is VLR-D, but it was produced only from 1951 (according to Military jeep: 1940 onwards book). Production ceased around 1956, so they were probably used a bit longer (now: 1/46-12/57).

#112, 315, 383 Bazooka Team - proper picture for Super Bazooka M20 is 23550

#113 57mm RCL - correct pic is 9074 or 12072. Current is 75mm M20 (used in the game mostly as M40)

#160, 161, 218-220, 904, 971 all Rafale should have picture 6159 (they have Mirage III now)

#165 B-26 Marauder - correct pic is 9193 (now it's Invader)

#173, 174 T6G Tomcat - correct pic is 9143 (T-6 Harvard, now it's T-28)

#181 F-84F - correct pic is 9134 (now it's F-84G)

#221 F-8E Crusader - I've proposed a picture of the French F-8, eg. 010.

#222 Junker - is the name correct?..

#278, 279 Goumiers, 284 Eclaireurs moi, 285 Native Scouts - proper pic for .303 Lee Enfield is 7096

#291 Armoured Truck - better picture seems 64534

#316 57mm RCL - as #113

#384, 402 Alpine Inf-AT - picture used for LRAC is 6117

#439, 440 VTT PM 81mm, 120mm - better pic for SP-mortars with external 12.7mm is 6088

#469 2.5 Ton GMC - proper pic for GMS is 23578

#481-487 H34 Pirate - better picture of specifically French H-34 is 6483

#511-512 SA 116 Pirate, WW SA 116 - I couldn't find "SA 116" designation in the Web. H-34 Pirate might be safer?..

Formations:
#005 AMX13/SS11 Pl - according to Armour in profile no.12, there were four AMX-13/SS11 in a platoon.

Regards
Michal

And which is off-topic for the thread really.

If you have complaints about a particular OOB in general then you really should in future open a new thread for that specific purpose.

It makes our keeping track of any such error reports much easier than having to recall that it was actually buried inside this thread on a related subject as an aside...

Andy

Palle · #6 December 25th, 2011, 10:04 AM

I just notice, there is an A-26 and an Ouregan available from 1952 with Napalm, yet that is still not 1951 and I do not think that the French deployed any jets to Indochina. I only ever heard of props there. It is as if the effort there was second priority and only got second-hand equipment.

The A-26 is a very nice tactical bomber though, if there is one thing the Americans are good at, it is airpower.

On a similar note, I cannot see French halftracks in the oob for that period; yet they were used in Indochina (though amphibs were more important of course). Am I overlooking something?

And lastly, on a less serious note. The French deployed two armoured trains to Indochina. Is it possible to model them in a game such as this? If so I will have to do it myself, just for the fun of it.

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #7 December 25th, 2011, 01:35 PM

I would've thought the French sourced references would've answered your questions, I see not. So for the French absolutely no jets and from the book I own HELL IN A VERY SMALL PLACE The Siege of Dien Bien Phu by Bernard B. Fall I will present only the fighters and bombers portion from Appendix C: The Role of Airpower page 485 of this great book;
Fighters
Fighter Group 1/22 "Saintonge"}
Fighter Group 2/22 "Languedoc"} F8F Bearcats (U.S)
3rd Carrier Assault Flotilla SB-2C Helldivers (U.S.)
(On Arromanches until April 30)
11th Carrier Fighter Flotilla F6F Hellcats (U.S.)
(On Arromanches until April 30)
14th Carrier Fighter Flotilla 18 F4U Corsairs (U.S.)
(On Belleau Wood, replacing
decimated 11th Flotilla on May 1)

Bombers
Bomber Group 1/25 "Tunisie" B-26 Marauders (U.S)
28th Bomber Flotilla (French Navy) PB4Y2 Privateers (U.S)
It continues on in order to list Transports, Recon, Lia. & Med Evac, Civilian and Additional transports flown.

At that battle 6 Bearcats actually provided close air support from the airfield there until it was rendered unusable and to the armor question it appears only two CHAFFEE tanks were there both having been flown in crated with final assembly done on site. What in the end killed the French in regards to air power was just the total lack of it especially in transport resupply capability. This mistake among others would not be repeated again in Algeria.
So this answers Jets-No Corsairs-yes but, only after the U.S. was finished with them near the end of a little war we were in, The Korean War. Or you can refer back to Post #11

Regards,
Pat

Palle · #8 December 25th, 2011, 01:34 PM

Another question:
The French puppet state in S. Vietnam has support ships available, but the mgs can only fire forwards. I would think they would be in swivel mounts and be able to fire 360 degrees? As it is their use is thus limited.

Palle · #9 December 25th, 2011, 02:06 PM

Hey Pat.

There were 12 "Bisons" from Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny's old Regiment, not two, at DBP. Only two or three still functioned at the surrender though.

As for the support boat (this should interest you). In 1946-47, the French rebuilt some captured German S-Boots to use at river patrols.
The changes were:
-Strenghtened bow
-Closed torp tubes and remove torps.
-Adding a twin mg at the front and two Bofors on the middle and back, all in swivel mounts.
So the French did have better support craft available than those in game- I always liked the S-Boots.

scJazz · #10 December 27th, 2011, 05:23 PM

Fastboat Tough,

Would it be safe to say that the changes needed are to add a napalm carrying variant of Helldiver, Hellcat and Bearcat available from Jan '51 until the aircraft is no longer in use? Corsairs are already covered which is what brought this subject up to start. Invaders could have dropped Napalm as well as C-47 transports which apparently they were using to throw Napalm over the side but for SPMBT purposes somehow I don't think that needs modelling.

If this is in fact the case I wouldn't mind helping. Or since I'm new at this I could just go sit in the corner and watch the masters at work