Pseudo-Newtonian Movement

[PvK]

The engine limits per ship in Proportions have the effect of limiting the range of operations of capital ships. Also, with two main classes of engines at each tech level (specialized either for speed or for efficiency), there are trade-offs between range and speed. The result is that the deadlier fleets have considerable supply requirements, while slower and smaller ship designs can operate at more extended range from a supply source or tanker fleet. In turn, this means that developing and protecting a supply network can determine where and when you can deploy the fastest and most powerful ship designs.

The limits on max engines per hull size provide another trade-off between small and large ships in terms of maximum speed, and are one of several trade-offs that give small ships a continued role at higher tech levels.

PvK

[Suicide Junkie]

If you eliminate the engine limits (and tweak the thrust levels a bit) then you will get the option of:
- Long range, low speed (with efficiency drives)
- Long range, moderate-high speed, minimal active components (with lots and lots of efficiency drives.
- Short range, Moderate speed (with power drives)
- Short range, Insane speed, minimal active components (with lots and lots of power drives)

Where active components are anything other than C&C and engines.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
If you eliminate the engine limits (and tweak the thrust levels a bit) then you will get the option of:
- Long range, low speed (with efficiency drives)
- Long range, moderate-high speed, minimal active components (with lots and lots of efficiency drives.
- Short range, Moderate speed (with power drives)
- Short range, Insane speed, minimal active components (with lots and lots of power drives)

Where active components are anything other than C&C and engines.

Yes, though all except the Last are already possible in Proportions. Much of this is thanks to the cheap supply components in Proportions.

Long-range, low-speed is possible with efficient engines and the cheap supply components, or solar sails.

Long-range, moderate speed, low active components is possible by using fast engines and supply components.

Short-range, moderate speed is what you get with a typical ship using mostly high-speed drives or a mix, depending on your hull size.

Short-range, insane speed is what you can only get with specialized components, which is intentional and the main reason I have limits on the number of engines. Note that the speeds are already quite high for a small ship with high-output engines (a small low-tech interceptor can get up to speed 9 from the start). You can still develop insane-speed ships by researching emergency propulsion and gravitic drives (I think the max theoretical speed is about 22 with the current components in Proportions - but it would require some advanced research, and would be lower for large ships).

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Elmo:
Can anyone explain what the "Engines per Move" parameter does in the vehiclesize.txt file? Thanks.

Yes. It's the number of STANDARD MOVEMENT POINTS needed per unit of speed the ship will have in strategic movement.

PvK

[Elmo]

thanks

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
<snip>
- He moved them there using his powerful Stellar Manip techs.

He MOVED the planets there? I may have to try P&N just so I can move planets around...

[Val]

SJ:

How did he move the planets?

[Captain Kwok]

The reason I don't like QNP without engine limits is that you can have ships that fly around at 20 sectors per turn. I think it hurts the strategic aspects and "epicness" of the game if you can whip across all your systems in three turns to respond to an invasion or whatever. Anything more than 10-12 movement points is too much.

I'm for more engines for bigger ships - just not lots of movement. Who was it asking MM remove the 255 limit? Why? There's no need to zip around like that - even if it is to "simulate FTL propulsion".

I kind of like plodding around the galaxy and trying to determine where to station my fleets to maximize my empire's defense. Even with 15 movement points - that's an extra planet or two destroyed in some systems in one turn.

[Suicide Junkie]

The reason I don't like QNP without engine limits is that you can have ships that fly around at 20 sectors per turn.

I have a ship or two like that in my game at home. They are DS, with basic C&C, a temporal sensor and 23 Gravitic drives.

Even with 15 movement points - that's an extra planet or two destroyed in some systems in one turn.

Perhaps new, undefended colonies, but not any world with a half-assed (even AI-generated) defense in place.
You have to sacrifice all of your defenses, and almost all of your weaponry in order to get those really high speeds, so a platform or a handful of sats will swat your ships like bugs.
Sure, if you send enough ships, you can do plenty of damage, but you are spending a huge pile of resources to maintain all those engines.

Anything more than 10-12 movement points is too much.

I totally agree. The warships I design move only 5 MP at the very beginning, increasing to 8 or 9 by the endgame as engines get more efficient.

The key point to the QNP system in P&N is that the limits are not arbitrary. They are economical. Top of the line engines can cost 1000 rads each.

You can make all of your ships move 20 sectors per turn, but they will be worth a king's ransom to build, and be worth squat in combat.
Special forces ships, spyships, and medical ships are potentially worth giving 20 MP. Their key abilities are concentrated into a few KT, and can afford the space.

Transports, ships of the line, and other vehicles are decidedly not worth the cost.
It is usually better to have a transport take twice as much cargo while taking twice as long to get there, and costing half as much.

The point is that the player gets to decide. I do not limit the number of engines because I hate the reason of:
"Because I said so"

[PvK]

Ya, I think that's entirely valid and interesting and not imbalanced, SJ. It's nice to be able to focus on certain abilities without it usually being a good idea, which is something I tried to put into Proportions in a number of ways, too.

The limits I have in Proportions are just a different system, not necessarily better.

In Proportions, the engine limits are supposed to represent the limits of a design, and to add some trade-off decisions between say, a slow but cheap transport hull, and a more expensive and faster one (such as a transport design on a warship hull). I gave maintenance bonuses to transport hulls, and made it possible to put several other types of components in the 50% requirement besides just Cargo Storage, so one of the trade-offs is that the design can't support enough engines to get up to as much speed as a warship can, although you could develop gravitic drives and emergency propulsion and still get something pretty fast.

PvK

(edited for typos)

[ May 15, 2002, 20:51: Message edited by: PvK ]