Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[The Panther]

I am glad you brought this up, for I have been meaning to ask about that.

Does Zen's mods truly cut out the false horror spam? What is to prevent the Seraphs from still casting quickness followed by 4 false horrors anyway, even at 30- fatigue? The only difference I could see is that the AI will rarely cast any more horrors at the higher fatigue cost after the script ends. But they don't much cast horrors anyway, frequently preferring for whatever stupid reason to cast phantasimal warriors instead.

Has anyone tested this with the spell mod?

[alexti]

PDF said:
Alexti,
I agree with you, things change when global battlefields spells come into play - in my experience it's rather after turn 40 (but I'm in peaceful Old Europe, so maybe .. ).

RoS is Evo-7, FH is Alt-6, so they're not too far apart. If I have some Pythium/Arco/Caelum neighbour I'd prioritize RoS to have a counter if they attack me. In this case I'll have it much earlier than turn 40 (turn 25-30). If I have other enemies I may postpone this research.

PDF said:
But when this happens Caelum gets no special drawback - their mages won't survive RoS (does Mistform not protect ?), but neither will most other mages and troops : if Caelians have SG/IC/TC they won't be scratched.
Same goes for most global BF spells, once they're in summons are needed.

Mistform helps to some extent (if one has time to cast it). I'm not sure what "strong hit" is, but multiple RoS are still nasty. I haven't really tested it, but from past experience I'd guess that mage has 10-20% per RoS to get killed. And heavy troops are ok in RoS, so any army that primarily rely on heavy melee troops is reasonable safe from RoS, opponents won't probably cast RoS to kill couple of support mages and few units. In many ways Pythium and Arco are similar to Caelum. They all have deadly and easily dying mages.

[Zen]

Booyah!

[Chazar]

A)What was the reason behind keeping the 1 AirGem requirement for SummonAirElementals instead of nerfing the AirElementals themselves?

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B)Another thing that bugs me is the Fire susceptibility of IceDevils. It is good to nerf IceDevils, but why by adding Fire susceptibility?

1. I think it is not very thematic: Considering water versus fire, I would always bet that water is the winner. Things might be somehwat different for ice versus fire, but the IceDevils are powerful water mages...

2. It makes them more symmetric to the arch devils. Symmetry might be good for balance, but it also defeats diversity. Diversity is one of Dom2 greatest features IMHO!

Do IceDevils already get increased and noticeable fatigue when fighting within hot lands (something symmetric to cold-bloodedness)? That would seem much more appropriate to me...

[Zen]

A.) Because Air Elementals are extremely exploitable in a Storm. They also have an armor piercing attack and can fly. Storms are already so exploitable, making them more so by chainsummoning would not 'diversify' the game. Once again catapulting Air magic to the forefront of synergestic spells.

B.) Because by adding a vulnerability it is quite a sacrifice to try to get full resists (thus making it a true SC). Ice Devils are already physically more powerful than Arch Devil's, have better buffs. I don't see why the 'diversity' is hurt by having them equally niche useful as an Arch Devil as far as resistances. In actuality you may still always choose a ID over a AD (if you have the option) because of the physical stats, but depending on who you are fighting it might have a counterweight.

a.) The protection that normal ID's lose even in Heat 3 Enviroment (outside of the ID that is especially sensitive to heat) is minor and acceptable when you can equip a Ring of Fire to null the Encumberance issue (which is the big issue with Cold Bloodedness).

My response might be misunderstanding. I can't fathom how having one unit with a different vulnerability to it's opposite element lessens the diversity in anything but equipping the Ice Devil. I can say in the stock game before the nerf, there was never a reason to pick an AD over an ID with the exception you couldn't gather up enough Air gems to make Boots of Flying. As it stands now if you will probably summon the ID's first but they won't be immediately invulnerable to 90% of the mages you meet with two items, instead it requires 3

[Chazar]

First: I am sorry if you found my questions insulting, this was not intended, I was merely asking out of interest. I am a bit worried because I interpret your reply a bit harsh, but maybe you are just tired of defending your ideas... ...or maybe I am a bit tired and interpret you wrong. No worries in that case.

Second, I am not that satisfied with the answers:
A) Ok, you say that AirElementals might be too powerful. I do not disagree with you on that. So they could be balanced by changing their stats. You choose a different way by leaving them as they are, but making their Fire/Water/Earth counterparts more accessible. Fine and diversifying. I was just not sure why you preferred the one way over the other...

B) I assume it is less diversifying, since it adds more symmetry, and symmetry is order, and an ordered system is less diverse in the sense that chaos is diverse. Example: Changing Abysia by turning fire resistance into cold resistance, heat aura into cold aura, fire picks into water picks, cold preferrence instead of heat preferrence would not add much diversity to the game, IMHO. Sure there would be further differences, since not every fire item or fire spell has an ice or water counterpart, which is due to the broken symmetry (i.e. diversity) of spells and items.

This is also the case with the Elementals: FireElementals are susceptible to Cold, but WaterElementals are not susceptible to Fire, hence effectively countering the one versus the other needs slightly different tactics than just replacing a water mage with fire mage. I like that, since most other games would have them symmetric in susceptibility, but not in Dom2! Thus I was just wondering whether adding a fire suceptibility was the only way of establishing the balance (since I do agree that IDs where too strong in comparance), and whether you considered other ideas which were neglected in the end...

[Huzurdaddi]

Ok, you say that AirElementals might be too powerful. I do not disagree with you on that. So they could be balanced by changing their stats. You choose a different way by leaving them as they are, but making their Fire/Water/Earth counterparts more accessible. Fine and diversifying. I was just not sure why you preferred the one way over the other...

Have you tried using them? The other elementals move somewhat slowly and are somewhat difficult to get into the fray. Air elementals since they fly do not have this problem. This makes them wickedly easier to use. Try it out edit back the fatigue cost to 99 ( is that what Zen used? ) for air elementals and see what happens. I tried it out and they were amazingly effective.

The only way I could see to balance them with the other elementals would be to

a) make them almost 100% ineffective in combat
b) make them not fly and slow down their movement to be in line with other elementals.
c) keep the gem cost

To me ( b ) would probably have been the easiest solution ( assuming it is possible ) but it would have been horribly unthematic. So Zen went with ( c ) which sounds fine to me.

[Zen]

Chazar said:
First: I am sorry if you found my questions insulting, this was not intended, I was merely asking out of interest. I am a bit worried because I interpret your reply a bit harsh, but maybe you are just tired of defending your ideas... ...or maybe I am a bit tired and interpret you wrong. No worries in that case.

I don't think I was trying to be harsh, just quick. I haven't had alot of time to peruse the forum as of late and an actual feedback question in this thread is pretty uncommon So if it sounded harsh, I apologize and no you don't sound harsh to me.

Second, I am not that satisfied with the answers:
A) Ok, you say that AirElementals might be too powerful. I do not disagree with you on that. So they could be balanced by changing their stats. You choose a different way by leaving them as they are, but making their Fire/Water/Earth counterparts more accessible. Fine and diversifying. I was just not sure why you preferred the one way over the other...

This is an idea, but the only way to really do this would kill the theme of the Air Elemental AFAIK. I have thought about modifying the Air Elemental to not have flying, but it felt very wrong, I also modified their attack to be a "Force of Wind" like a air punch and I still ran into the same problem of having Storm Exploitable Air Elementals who then, had an unresistable normal attack. I'm sure I could come up with a way to sufficiently nueter the Air Elemental while allowing it to flying in Storms and gaining a bonus in storms but as of yet I haven't been able to find the time to wrangle it into place. Also I've had a slight issue with finding a proper balance for Communion, which I have fixed in the latest release of the Spellmod. Maybe I'll take the time over the next few days to design a new weapon/stats to fit.

B) I assume it is less diversifying, since it adds more symmetry, and symmetry is order, and an ordered system is less diverse in the sense that chaos is diverse. Example: Changing Abysia by turning fire resistance into cold resistance, heat aura into cold aura, fire picks into water picks, cold preferrence instead of heat preferrence would not add much diversity to the game, IMHO. Sure there would be further differences, since not every fire item or fire spell has an ice or water counterpart, which is due to the broken symmetry (i.e. diversity) of spells and items.

Possibly and I do see your point. However. If you take the case of the Ice Devil and break it down you have:

Lower Research
Super-Combatant Chassis
Lower Resources to Cast
Physically more Powerful than *any* other SC chassis except Lords of Hell and Possibly Air Queens.
Paths of Magic that provide a key component of a high end SC, Quickness/BoW the only other better path could concievably be Air.
One full Resistance (Cold) and no Vulnerabilities.

In balancing this unit you have to look first at what it provides for it's cost. Then you have to decide if there is an issue of this considered the "Best" or most efficent. If it is the "Best" or most efficent, is it limited or cost effective.

So based on this dynamic. The ID was nerfed to be in line with it's nearest counterpart, in-as-much if you had access to both spells, both were availiable and with the same amount of resources there would actually be a *choice* between the two instead of the logical decision being one.

Thus it was raised in Research (to stop the Rush), raised in Cost (for the choice) and given a vulnerability to counteract some of it's physically superior advantage over the Arch-Devil which in addition to it's own physically lower stats has a built in vulnerability. Forcing an ID to have a Fire Helmet, Charcoal Shield, or Hell Sword (common) is not actually much of a nerf in all actuality.

This is also the case with the Elementals: FireElementals are susceptible to Cold, but WaterElementals are not susceptible to Fire, hence effectively countering the one versus the other needs slightly different tactics than just replacing a water mage with fire mage. I like that, since most other games would have them symmetric in susceptibility, but not in Dom2!

Water Elementals are not susceptible to fire but Ice Elementals are. These are not Water Devils, but Ice Devils

Thus I was just wondering whether adding a fire suceptibility was the only way of establishing the balance (since I do agree that IDs where too strong in comparance), and whether you considered other ideas which were neglected in the end...

The fire suceptibility was half thematic and half balance. There were other ideas, but none of them seemed to really fit and they 'nerfed' too much I felt. Resistances can be modified with Equipment thus are overcomable, whereas lowering HP is not. If you have what you consider a better idea for an Ice Devil, I'd be more than willing to hear it.

[st.patrik]

Zen, it seems to me like the change to Hama Dryads makes them very overpowered - True they are limited in how far they can range from home, but 20 of those gals guarding your fortress will make damn sure no-one comes close to taking it. I think a free 'enslave mind' is way too powerful.

apologies if anyone already mentioned this - I didn't read all 18 pages, but I did do a search, and didn't find anything on it.

[quantum_mechani]

st.patrik said:
Zen, it seems to me like the change to Hama Dryads makes them very overpowered - True they are limited in how far they can range from home, but 20 of those gals guarding your fortress will make damn sure no-one comes close to taking it. I think a free 'enslave mind' is way too powerful.

apologies if anyone already mentioned this - I didn't read all 18 pages, but I did do a search, and didn't find anything on it.

No, even now they are not near overpowered, considering you need a lab in each province you summon them, which usually means a fort anyway, which means they become mostly a Last ditch defense...

This would be negated if you could move them around with Fairy Trod, Astral Travel, ect., but every turn away from their home province they take severe damage.