The FASTBOAT Patch page.

[Karagin]

SIM rounds are fun and games until the bruises show up, then again they do teach a very important less. STAY OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I'm going to post below both emails with the answers Ralph Zwilling provided from Tank-Masters de. Before I do and not for the primary recipient of this, I've gone back to my sources PLUS both the manufacturers sites ARTEC and Rheinmetall. Also to https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/heer

His answers are all in BOLD any comment by me will be in "()".

47 minutes and counting...

Gesendet: Dienstag, 02. Februar 2021 um 03:40 Uhr
Von: "patrick conklin"
An: "TANK - MASTERS"
Betreff: THANK YOU!
Ralph,
Good Morning! I

I very much appreciate your quick response back concerning the LEOPARD's and I noticed the local time and feel you did it with your morning coffee. I have copied a portion of the 10/26/2020 email this concerning the BOXER.

My feeling is that only Question #1 is relevant to this discussion for Germany. As far as I can determine, only Australia is actively pursuing the BOXER w/ LANCE turret. I believe this might be the case as well with the BOXER IFV however if they do it'll be later in the process. The Australian Army I can confirm is already started training on in parallel with the Manufacturer trials. The UK might also be a candidate for the BOXER LANCE but that can't be confirmed until their Defense Review is released sometime this month to address their whole armor issue.

Another reason is simply I've NEVER seen you post any pictures of any BOXER except the APC version. Finally Question #4 I've answered already unless you really surprise with something different.

"Looking at the German OOB concerning the LEOPARD, I think I came across some issues outside of what we discussed. I'll list them below. Dates are the "big" issues again, other information is there for you to comment on as you desire.

1) BOXER APC - We have a fielded date of 01/2011 another site I sometimes use is showing it to be 2009. What do you say? The GTK Boxer was handed over to the BWB (now BAAINBw) on 23.09.2009 at KMW in Munich. The first Bundeswehr unit, Jägerbataillon 292 from Donaueschingen, received the GTK Boxer on 11 March 2011 during their training rotation at the German Army Combat Training Center in Letz
lingen ( I'm currently looking at something past March 2011.)
1a) I noticed on your pictures the 12.7mm RWS appears to have a thermal imager (We use TI/GSR) is this correct? The FLW 200 features a CCD day camera, thermal imager and laser rangefinder ( I have to investigate the FLW 200 further.)

1b) 80km/h off road? That's outstanding! We do factor speed etc. Depending in the terrain like flat grass, etc. this is possible
( Speed issue off road flat terrain? I would think not but, not sure.)

2) BOXER IFV - Again fielded date JAN 2011. see Above
2a) We have it armed with a 40mm GL and TOW-2 (D) with 6 missiles.

The Bundeswehr has the following Variants

GTK Boxer Gruppentransportsfahrzeug armed with either cal.50 or 40mm Granatmaschinenwaffe (GRAMAWA)
GTK Boxer Fahrschulfahrzeug (Driver Training Vehicle)
GTK Boxer Führungsfahrzeug (Command Vehicle)
GTK Boxer schweres geschütztes Sanitätskraftfahrzeug (sgSanKfz) (Ambulance)
Currently all variants are upgraded to the A2 standard
( Here's where the real work is, there are 3 versions of BOXER's and they are GTK/GTK A1/GTK A2 the difference primarily will be in protection levels. For instance, I can see the GTK A2 at MRAP 7 by way of example. The UK might get this, no decision yet.)


3) BOXER w/LANCE Turret - I wasn't aware you got this version, though I submitted it for the Australian OOB under the LAND 400 contract. That being said, we have it fielded in JAN 2014 for the BUNDESWEHR. No idea (One of the Manufacturer sites indicated this more for export so to this for Germany-NO. That being said, Do not delete this version we'll need this to model it for Australia (w/SPIKE LR) and UK. It again is not in service with the BUNDESWEHR.)

4) LEOPARD 2A4 REVOLOUTION - I believe along with the LEOPARD 2A6 EX I mentioned earlier on, this is also only available as an upgrade, in this case for the 2A4 export market. We have it in the OOB, I know Indonesia was supposed to get it, Singapore operates a similar version and Turkey also was looking to do the same with their LEOPARD-2T that never got off the ground due to the ALTAY.
Did the BUNDESWEHR ever really have it? NO, mine. NO
(Not in active service with BUNDESWEHR. This was strictly an armor upgrade project for the exported LEOPARD 2A4. But like above save this unit as well for future modeling. Indonesia comes to mind right now.)

In my next I'll stay closer to the issue we discussed focusing only on the non-command tanks from your site that matches very closing from what I found from another site, maybe written by someone you know. If you want me to send it along next time let me know.

Posted you "news" from DRAGOON THUNDER 20 in the Forum. Great stuff especially as I'm following developments of that STRYKER 30mm version until it's fielded with the ARMY.

Take your time, insights are welcomed and your help is deeply appreciated.

Have a great day!

Pat"

So, this will be it for me. But one last question, would you allow to use some of your pictures for the tanks I'll be working on with credit to you and the site where I do. I feel when we have pictures of them "doing something" it's better than them being in a "static/display" position.

When this all gets submitted for submission and hopefully into the game would you like to be notified? I see this as a "collaboration" of sorts , that has "cleared the passage of fog for clear sailing" (It's the Submariner in me.) so I can proceed as I had hoped I could.

THANK YOU AGAIN!!

Pat

Never can sleep the night before a training session in the morning after standing post. I've got a couple of hours TV time with CINCLANTHOME on a rare bonus evening at home.

So I'm done here. If I can get to the other before I go to bed I will.

My TGIF on Sat.)

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I will simply start with BOXER, there will be more work involved with it then anticipated. I've never taken "half-measures" in anything I've done and therefore I'll not start here. I've added another source (KMW) to address the FLW-200 RWS. This a much more capable system then I thought originally with a "target determination" from 50m - 10,000m. Now I have a German Mom and Aunt near Berlin, so I fully understand what the connotation is meant by the word "determination" as used above. Nothing crazy but better then they have now for TI/GSR. German BOXER UNITS 055 and 056 (Minus TOW.) will represent my GTK A0 models. Both the GTK A1/A2 will be new build versions reflecting better armor and updated weapons systems.

I will include a washout of what can be done in the interim, as I've found one tank each for deletion and the other to be removed from active status to a "reference" unit if you will, in case a foreign power decides to update their LEOPARD 2A4 tanks to the REVOLUTION standard. I'll just finish this below when done.

I hope you'll read the questions through so I can keep my answers short in response to Ralphs.

His answers are all in BOLD any comment by me will be in "()".

Gesendet: Montag, 01. Februar 2021 um 07:04 Uhr
Von: "patrick conklin"
An: "TANK - MASTERS"
Betreff: LEOPARD MBT Assistance as discussed.
Ralph,
Good Morning! Hopefully all is well with family and you. Congratulations with your collaboration with Dragon Models!

It is my hope we can proceed together so I can get my submission together for our next patch to WinSPMBT (Modernized Steel Panthers). As noted, our German OOB needs fixing.

I have already indicated to the moderators/system managers that I'll be recapitalizing some existing units such as the LEOPARD 2A6 EX to up armored LEOPARD 2A6 with what I believe to be AMAP-B add on armor (I can now verify this.). Also tracking that the LEOPARD 2A7V might get the IBD SMART ProTech armor Ralphs answer I feel, has me thinking if not it, it'll be something close to it.).

So, some of these questions would suffice with a simple Yes or No. I'll provide dates as we have them in the German OOB. We just use a simple Month and Year format, i.e. 12/2020. Our dates assume when the tanks became available for combat and when withdrawn from combat units. So, question #1 below will have a direct bearing on the end date for the A24/A25 tanks. A simple "Good " will work if you have no issues with the dates given below.

I'm just concerned with the LEOPARD 2A4 -LEOPARD 2A7V.

1) In a national crisis would the training units' tanks be used in a possible combat situation? YES. Currently 3./Ausbildungsverband Gefechtsübungszentrum Heer has 18 of the 19 Leopard 2A5. The 19th vehicle is with the BAAINBw-(This was a critical question as was the answer "YES" in caps. Most countries to the East operate more tanks then Germany does currently ~250 all types. See Post 256 for an exact count and type/models.

2) LEOPARD 2A4 fielded in 01/1986. Withdrawn from combat units in 12/2008 (Which seems incorrect, as that's closer to when the training units stopped using them.) The first Leopard 2 was handed over to the Bundeswehr on 24 October 1979. The last Leopard 2A4 used by the 3./Ausbildungsverband Gefechtsübungszentrum Heer was withdrawn in 2008.-(I concur.)

3) LEOPARD 2A5 during or after KFOR, were they ever up armored with the "belly" steel plate for mine protection? My sources say no, we have them in the game as such. My understanding is due to the experiences of KFOR with the A24/A25, this would lead to the development of the A26M. The Leopard 2A5s were never fielded with a mine protection plate-(I've already identified those units and will upgrade them with AMAP-B where it applies based on availability.)

4) LEOPARD 2A5 fielded in 01/1996. Withdrawn from combat units in 12/2010. The Leopard 2A5s are still used by 3./Ausbildungsverband Gefechtsübungszentrum-(Refer back to Question #1.)

5) LEOPARD 2A6 fielded in 03/2001. Withdrawn from combat units in 12/2025. The last represents the end time for the game. So, you see the urgency in trying to fix what we can as we find them while still adding new and retiring other units as we find them through the web. The Leopard 2A6 will get upgraded to Leopard 2A6A3-(The LEOPARD 2A6A3 is already in service. The export LEOPARD 2A6 EX will provide me 3-4 UNITS I can modify without reinventing the wheel.)

6) LEOPARD 2A6M we don't have it in the game at all. All I can really find is that Germany had 80 built between 2004-2008. Some of these I know some were leased to Canada until they received their 2A4CAN/2A6CAN tanks. I'm assuming the BUNDESWEHR got them sometime in late 2004 or early 2005 and have no clue as to when they came out of service or were modified to another sub-variant of the 2A6. A total of 70 Leopard 2A6Ms were built in two batches (15 and 55). 20 of these Leopard 2A6Ms were leased by Canada and later one rebuilt to Leopard 2A7s. Afterwards the Bundeswehr had 49 Leopard 2A6M and one Leopard 2A6MA1 (With SEM 93 radio system) Between end 2015 and end 2017 the Leopard 2A6Ms received an upgrade like new infantry phone, SOTAS IP intercom, fire suppression system, new thermal sight for the commander, etc. During the rebuild these vehicles were designated as Leopard 2A6M+ in order to differentiate them from the Leopard 2A6Ms. After all vehicles got rebuilt they were again named Leopard 2A6M. Since 2018 the Panzerbataillon 414 field 20 Leopard 2A6MA2.-LEOPARD 2A6M will require 2 versions as they were upgraded again.

7) I'm sorry but, getting a little confusing here. If I understand the temporary designation to support the modification being the LEOPARD 2A6M+, that this tank wasn't actually fielded but, would become the LEOPARD 2A6MA2 is this correct? Also, with further upgrades added, this same tank would lead to the LEOPARD 2A6MA1 and a further upgraded LEOPARD 2A6M some time in 2018 fielded? see above-This question and answer concerning the LOEPAARD 2A6M+, has bitten us you know where in the past. THIS IS WHY WE MUST STICK TO FOC!! i.e. BOXER LANCER WAS SHOWN IN THE SUMMER 2014 at EUROSTATY ANNUAL WEAPONS SHOW. Guess when it's in the game and who doesn't have it.

8) LEOPARD 2A6M2 besides the dates for this tank, is this the one that received the same Fire Control System (FCS) as the LEOPARD 2A7? It features the cables to either integrate the German or the Dutch C4I systems as Panzerbataillon 414 is a German / Dutch unit.-This tank is the one attached attached to the combined Dutch/German Brigade. I need to look into this to see if there's more to it than that, however, it might what it is. The command as I understand it is rotated between the countries, if I verify this, does it possibly mean the Dutch should have it? This tank (C41 System) allows for total interoperability with each other's BSM/Comms Systems.

9) From the LEOPARD 2A6M on until item (8 above, we don't have any of those tanks entered by those designations or with those upgrades noted on your site and a couple of other as current as yours.

10) LEOPARD 2A7 this we have as I submitted and looks to be current as it stands now with this project. I have it fielded on 12/2014 with game end time again, 12/2025. All Leopard 2A7s will get upgraded to Leopard 2A7V- (I might be late with the date but, if I'm within the 6 month "swag", I intend to leave it alone. With going any deeper at this point it might be closer to Oct. 2014.)

11) LEOPARD 2A7V your thoughts please as to when you think it'll be fielded. And if you think I might be on the right track that it'll have the SMART ProTech armor package. Or do you think it might play more of a role in the development of the EMBT? The Leopard 2A7V will have a frontal armor for the hull and maybe some changes of the material of the turret armor but these data are classified-(Pending any newer (armor) data before submission (I expect FOC late this year, or early 2022. So I'm going to pursue SMART ProTech.)

12) Again, if you have time, I would appreciate your help with my 10/26/2020 email to you concerning mostly the BOXER as I think we have units the BUNDESWEHR hasn't ordered to this point based I what I can find.

If you have any thoughts, you wish to share please feel free. I will ensure you get full credit for your assistance and your website. Your website was the one that provided me with "concrete proof" that the LEOPARD 2A7 was fielded. So, I thank you for that.

Have a good day! See you were "playing" in the snow great shots!!

Pat

I know deletions/modifications might affect other game factors. I'm very confident the following have no active role with the BUNDESWEHR in Germany. The following is to allow you "to get ahead of the problem", if you so desire.

A) LEOPARD 2A4 UNIT 268 DELETE/NONE PAST DEC 2008. Some still in storage.

B) LEOPARD 2A4 REVOLUTION-Well it's gone. I know we had some discussion a few years back on this. I guess we already took care of it in each others way.

C) BOXER LANCE UNIT 560 REMOVE FROM GAME PLAY. We WILL need this to model the Australian/UK (Possibly) versions. It will need to be updated to the A2 Standard at the very least and possibly ammo as well which you have some better sources then me. Those versions will have the SPIKE LR turret mounted.

D) This next though addressed above the BOXER GL/AT UNIT 056, would it be easier for you to just DELETE it, then me modifying it?

That's it, I don't know when the deadline is, you can just PM on that if you wish. All I can do is get going on this and hopefully it'll be ready in time. If not, it'll be posted here when I finish it.

We got through our ADMIN/Minor Drill portion in good shape as far as I know.

This week "The World Goes to ." and I'll leave it at that as I like my job and still need it to get my axx to retirement!?!

Appointments in the morning, so Good Whatever, Wherever you are!!

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

C) BOXER LANCE UNIT 560 REMOVE FROM GAME PLAY. We WILL need this to model the Australian/UK (Possibly) versions. It will need to be updated to the A2 Standard at the very least and possibly ammo as well which you have some better sources then me. Those versions will have the SPIKE LR turret mounted.

D) This next though addressed above the BOXER GL/AT UNIT 056, would it be easier for you to just DELETE it, then me modifying it?[/b]
Regards,
Pat

Pat...... WHY would I remove units that you say just need modifications ?? That's not how things work.

Both of units will stay as they are for now until I can find more info. The only thing I can assume this means is the Lance version is only used by Australia and is not fielded by Germany? As well it IS already in the Australian OOB so we don't need that to model the Australian version as it's already there ( U42)

Don

[DRG]

Just to make this more "fun" than it is due to info acquired over the past year the German OOB now had 2 Leopard 2A6M's.

The first one is U35 with 50 FC and 6 stab and the second is U37 with 55 FC and 7 stab so keep that in mind that you will not show those in your OOB. In yours they are just A6's and the in-out dates are a bit different and as well U31 (Leopard 2A5) and U32 (Leopard 2A5-S) have been removed as has the 2A4 U268.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

BOXERS-CORRECT, Germany does not operate the LANCE/or AT version. And what is in the OOB is the A0 version.

Australia will operate the LANCE w/SPIKE LR ATGW (2) along with APC and other versions. Their BOXERS are still in Manufacturer Trails and the Army just started training on them. I'm not seeing them before Oct. 2021 earliest.

Even at that we'll still need to modify them because the ONLY BOXER in production is the A2 version now. That's what their getting and UK (First deliveries test beds sometime in 2023.)

I'm tracking Australia very closing as I receive their official Army paper in my email, as I've pointed out in the past.

So to be clear...
1. BOXERs for Germany, will all be left in for me to modify. I'll be adding about 5-6 more to represent the A1 AND A2 versions that include weapon station changes as well.

2. You got the LEOPARD 2A6M tanks covered, that being said, I'm giving you my I was looking at for the 2 versions.

Remember we had this discussion when I first posted my tank questions to Ralph before he answered them, in here.

Your response said it all to that Post so those tanks as far as dates were concerned was the first thing I researched across all my sources, they're free to use or not.

Original LEOPARD 2A6M START 10/2004/or JAN 2005 and the END 06/2018

Upgraded LEOPARD 2A6M START 06/2018 and of course END 12/2025.

For those that haven't been following along Germany took the LEOPARD 2A6M give it 2 separate upgrade production designations as the LEOPARD 2A6M+A1 and the LEOPARD 2A6M+.

The dates above reflect the upgrade period, lead back to the following new and "old" designations of LEOPARD 2A6A1 (New Commanders version. Which I do not intend to submit as the following is the same tank.) ) and back again to the LEOPARD 2A6M again.

I would ask to leave the first at TI/GSR 40. It would be the later LEOPARD 2A6 and other that benefitted from ATTICA FCS. I'm trying to keep separation with these FCS's as best as I can. We have self imposed TI'GSR 60 as max for tanks, that works and I'll need it for my LEOPARD 2A7V built.

I've been thinking about this for a while that in case of "mission creep" I might need to increase the TI/GSR on the LEOPARD 2A7.

I've talked about it, but we never addressed the German ATTICA FCS in the game and TI/GSR 45/or 50 for that FCS works for me.

We have to coordinate on this issue 45 or 50 for ATTICA so that I can proceed accordingly. I'll need your numbers for that system so my tanks with match yours.

I gotta get dinner and enjoy the rest of this evening as I'm sure the "fun and games" might alter my mood through the week.


Australia from March 2019 through October 2020. Looking at the JANE's ref bottom maybe JAN 2022 better START date.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/marc...einmetall.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/sept..._vehicles.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/june...v_program.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._underway.html
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...oured-vehicles


Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Original LEOPARD 2A6M START 10/2004/or JAN 2005 and the END 06/2018

Upgraded LEOPARD 2A6M START 06/2018 and of course END 12/2025

Now done

I would ask to leave the first at TI/GSR 40.

It is 40. The later upgrade is 50

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Thanks! Your 50 will represent ATTICA as it should.

At your convenience, please send me your FCS numbers for the upgraded LEOPARD 2A6M when your happy with them. I'll need them for parity between yours and mine with ATTICA FCS.

ATTICA FCS: TI/GSR 50/FCXX/LASER R/F XX and STABILIZER X.

Mine for "sake of argument" just to see how we're thinking together on this, mine would've been...
ATTICA FCS MINE: TI/GSR 50/FC 50/55/LASER R/F 22 and STABILIZER 6.

That's a lot better then saying "Hey! That's what I was thinking it should be also!" The above is much more honest.

Made a change to 401K gotta make sure my payroll deduction %'s for each fund didn't change OMG! 20MINUTES BEFORE THEY CLOSE!!!!!

Regards,,
Pat

[DRG]

https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/03...ility-reduced/

n a cost saving measure, the Australian Department of Defense has signaled a significant reduction in the number of Spike LR2 anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) launchers being procured for the new Boxer Combat Reconnaissance Vehicles (CRV).


The missile has also recently been adopted as the Long Range Direct Fire Support Weapon (LRDFSW) under Project LAND 159 (Lethality Systems) for Australian Army dismounted infantry as reported last month by Overt Defense. It is currently unknown if the in-service FGM-148 Javelin will be replaced with LR2 in Australian Special Operations Command (SOCOMD) units due to their high degree of interoperability with US units.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well they'll (Australia) will still get some just not as many maybe since it appears no final decision has been made yet. Also we've got time as they're not fielded yet.

As noted watching events here closely as for other developments to include M1A1 upgrade to a SEP variant, Down selecting the APACHE AH-64E (We might not see this.) and of course the BOXER.

Going back to my successful contact with their MOD (M1A1/Vietnam era Armor TO&E etc.), I've subscribed to their official newspaper. And, NO this isn't like "our" AIR FORCE/ARMY/MARINE/NAVY Times before anyone says anything.

APACHE issue on Page 2 of the current issue of below ref.
https://www.defence.gov.au/news/armynews/

Of course I'll use all my other resources as well. The above I've found to be very forthright in their reporting.

My time is up. There's heightened World tensions out there right now.

Regards,
Pat