Is the intelligence in SE(?) ok?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by alarikf:
Which projects do you think need to be dropped or modified? (throw up a list and we'll debate it)

Also, I am not a modd'er but are intel projects open to modding? That would make a lot of this a moot point, since we could just come up with a better intel mod...

I will need a little time to look into that one since I have not played with them turned on in some time. I really can’t remember which ones I would want to change off hand but don’t stop the discussion on account of me. Can they be Moded? Good question but don't worry about it unless you really want to know. I would like to drum up ideas to submit to Aaron as a group for changes in SE5 as opposed to Mod ideas.

[Suicide Junkie]

How about:
Remove counter intel projects.
Price of intel sabotage should be medium-low. (reduction in price as counter-intel tech rises, say)
Espionage projects should have low to medium cost depending on value.
Sabotage projects should have high to extreme costs depending on value.

low = about 10k
medium = about 40k
high = 100k
Extreme = 500k

So, the chance of success goes down with the time taken to complete the project.
The big sabotage projects would take quite a while to do, and would be vulnerable to intel-sabotage projects. Running some throw-away "decoy" projects would use more intel points, but would help your chances overall.

Someone capable of completing 12 intel-sabotage projects in one turn could completely block any multi-turn projects by one other player...
This would still allow a few cheaper projects through, but would be good protection against major sabotage.
It would also leave a vulnerability to other attackers. If the projects are split, you'd still catch a good deal of the major sabotage, though there would be a chance of success if you get unlucky on the intel sabotaging.

Feel free to tweak the numbers, these are just rough.

[Baron Grazic]

The change I would like to see, is just one extra field "Percentage of Success" for each Intelligence Project.
Each time you do an Intel Op, if the other race has 'Counter-Intel then it fails (perhaps a tiny chance of success anyway?).
If no 'Counter-Intel then the Intel Op has a "Percentage of Success".
Have this field a text field within each Intel Project so the modders could change it to what they think is appropriate.
i.e.. Ship Blueprints - "Percentage of Success" = 80%
i.e.. Ship Bomb - "Percentage of Success" = 25%
i.e.. Puppet Political Parties - "Percentage of Success" = 5%

Having a "Percentage of Success" would stop all Intel ops succeeding when you remove their 'Counter Intel, and it would make you think more on which Intel projects would benefit you more.

Do you want to risk 10K Intel points on a ship bomb project with a 20% chance, or learn the blue prints on that new Dreadnaught for 15K, with a 80% chance of success?

[Roanon]

Having a (low) chance of success is a very good idea. With these lesser chances, the ability to store counterintel points should be removed, and the system might actually work. You either have more CI or you don't. If you do not have enough CI, the spies do not make devastating damage for sure every turn, but have a small chance every turn. And this not after dozens of turns wearing down CI defenses but from the first turn of the intel clash onwards.
Another interesting option might be to offer different spcialized CI projects, which are more effective in their field (e.g. planet sabotage, ship sabotage, etc) but do not affect intel in other fields at all. So you have more choices than just "everything to counter intel" every turn.

[President_Elect_Shang]

How does this idea strike you all? It is a sort of recombination of ideas posted.

Chance for succesfully defending against an intel attack should be developed into the advanced traits Category so that you can pick one based on how you perceive your race. This would allow moders to tinker with the numbers for new races added after release of SE5. It would also allow for variations amongst species. For example you may be able to bribe a dirty human official into leading a planet into rebellion but you wouldn’t have it easy trying to get a hive minded queen to do the same thing. I don’t want to start throwing out percentages right now; anyway if Aaron likes the idea we would only need to develop guidelines for the base races that would be included in SE5 such as the Eee. This selectable advanced traits option would serve as the chance to counter an intel attack and thus you could remove the counter intel Category from the Intelligence screen. Follow me?

[ December 18, 2003, 02:10: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Q]

Personally I don't like the idea to drop counter intel at all. And for me the ability to store counter intel points was actually an improvement of SE IV compared to SE III. However I like the idea of a racial characteristic (more than a racial trait) where you can alter the success rate of enemy intel projects in the game setup pretty much like the defensiveness characteristic works for combat. And if the ability "Change Bad Intelligence Chance - System" is fixed as promised in the next patch we will have many possibilities to modify the intel actions already in SE IV.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I didn’t mean to say that the storage of intel points should be dropped. If you drop the counter intel projects because you have different selectable levels of “counter intel defense”, for lack of a better name, than that equates to focusing on offensive intel projects. Also Q I am not sure what you mean by racial (species) characteristics as opposed to racial (species) traits, could you please expand on this concept for me?

[Q]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Also Q I am not sure what you mean by racial (species) characteristics as opposed to racial (species) traits, could you please expand on this concept for me?

A racial trait you pick or you don't. It's all or nothing. A racial characteristic can be raised or lowered by 1% intervals and starts at 100%. This gives you much more variety than one or two fixed racial traits.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Right, I guess I had a mind blank, actually no, I was thinking of the chocolate covered cherries I was making at the time. I would prefer to see it introduced as a species trait. As the game stands now Intelligence is a species characteristic, but it is very generic. I see what you are saying though, that it should be split into categories (right) like intel-defense, intel-offense for example. I think this may (or may not) complicate things more. It is an idea worth exploring though.

Do enough of us here like both points that we can safely split into two paradigms and discuss the pros and cons?

Paradigm 1) Intelligence as a species characteristic.

Paradigm 2) Intelligence as a species trait.

[rdouglass]

How about both?

Using a model you've been discussing, maybe treat Intel like combat bonuses; each empire gets trait, characteristic, and training / experience values. Subtract total "Offensive" from "Defensive" (or vice versa) and that is the "percent chance of sucess".

Oversimplified, but sounds feasible to me....anyone else?

EDIT: Isn't that how "Chance to Hit" is calc'ed now??? Without using any Talisman-like features, that should always provide a chance to suceed AS WELL AS a chance to fail.

[ December 18, 2003, 17:50: Message edited by: rdouglass ]