Tien Chi Conscription

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Not just a good deal, but incredibly more attractive. You could expect your province defense to increase every single turn in every province with order 3. That's a huge income boost.

That's sort of what I was getting at. As it stands, the current conscription, even with order-3, increases PD so rarely and weakly that it may as well be considered a random event rather than a national feature! Tien Chi's core national units are pretty weak as it stands, making the provincial defense conscription feature a more prominent part of the nation couldn't hurt at all.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Tien Chi's core national units are pretty weak as it stands, making the provincial defense conscription feature a more prominent part of the nation couldn't hurt at all.

Are you aware of what kind of income boost having your PD increase by 1 in every province, every turn, would be? In your capital alone, that's a starting income of 25 gold, 35 by the time turn 10 rolls around. If you spend 50 gold to get your PD up to around 10, then it will pay for itself in about 4 turns, once your defense gets to 15-20 and starts to be very expensive. When you have 10 PD in 20-30 provinces, that's a 200-300 gold piece income per turn, that increases rather quickly into the 400-600 gold per turn range.

Conscription was never intended to be something that 'gave them a boost' but as a thematic flavor enhancer. Conscription should not be changed if the base units of TC are weak (Which they are), but rather the units of TC should be changed.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Zen:
Conscription should not be changed if the base units of TC are weak (Which they are), but rather the units of TC should be changed.

The easiest, and IMO best, way to do this is to replace TC with the Ashikaga mod. The samurai are most assuredly not weak.

Considering the amount of work and research that went into making the TC, I think that would be a poor choice. Not to take anything away from Potatoman's mod, which I think is very good.

Though maybe this kind of decision should be made by those who play TC extensively, rather than Jotun.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Zen:
Conscription was never intended to be something that 'gave them a boost' but as a thematic flavor enhancer. Conscription should not be changed if the base units of TC are weak (Which they are), but rather the units of TC should be changed.

But if it is something that happens so rarely once you have built even minimum PD for patrolling that you do seldom notice it unless you are looking very carefully in an attempt to observe it, it does not really add much flavour either.

It certainly seems much more like a minimally beneficient random event than actual conscription. After all, conscription is not people voluntarily joining up ever now in a rare while, it is the organised impressment of the populace in the military.

I would really like a change based on the level of PD already in a province:

Each turn, if

• PD<5, 5%+ORDER*30% chance of PD being set to 5
• 5<=PD<10, 5%+ORDER*30% chance of +1 PD
• 10<=PD<20, 5%+ORDER*20% chance of +1PD
• 20<=PD, 5%+ORDER*5% chance of +1PD

Thus each province with high order would gravitate quickly to 10 (where automatic patrolling occurs) and a bit more slowly to 20 (for the second commander of the local defense), and only rarely improve thereafter.

It would represent a military system of conscription in all provinces for purposes of a low-level defense.

That would certainly seem much more in line with the name of the ability, and while it WOULD allow the player to save quite a bit of money on low level PD in provinces at a low risk of invasion, the player would still have to pay real money for high-level PD, which is what is most important anyhow.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Arryn:
The easiest, and IMO best, way to do this is to replace TC with the Ashikaga mod. The samurai are most assuredly not weak.

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is never a satisfactory solution for *any* problem. If you like Ashikaga, by all means play it (it seems like a really great mod) but TC is core and should be improved, not replaced.

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
But if it is something that happens so rarely once you have built even minimum PD for patrolling that you do seldom notice it unless you are looking very carefully in an attempt to observe it, it does not really add much flavour either.

It certainly seems much more like a minimally beneficient random event than actual conscription. After all, conscription is not people voluntarily joining up ever now in a rare while, it is the organised impressment of the populace in the military.

I would really like a change based on the level of PD already in a province:

Each turn, if

• PD<5, 5%+ORDER*30% chance of PD being set to 5
• 5<=PD<10, 5%+ORDER*30% chance of +1 PD
• 10<=PD<20, 5%+ORDER*20% chance of +1PD
• 20<=PD, 5%+ORDER*5% chance of +1PD

Thus each province with high order would gravitate quickly to 10 (where automatic patrolling occurs) and a bit more slowly to 20 (for the second commander of the local defense), and only rarely improve thereafter.

It would represent a military system of conscription in all provinces for purposes of a low-level defense.

That would certainly seem much more in line with the name of the ability, and while it WOULD allow the player to save quite a bit of money on low level PD in provinces at a low risk of invasion, the player would still have to pay real money for high-level PD, which is what is most important anyhow.

I must be missing something here, but why is the PD value of T'ien Ch'i so eagerly desired? Their PD is among the weakest out there (Right up with Pythium and Pangaea). Even if the ratio was upped to whatever frequency you'd like it would have little impact on MP games, and a minor impact on SP (Only reason to really use PD in SP is to stop CoTW, CoTWild and to funnel the Computer to attack where you want them to).

If you are going to adjust something as far as conscription and the actual definition of the word, it would be to have more soldiers placed in PD per point. You still have to pay for their armor and armaments, you just have a readier supply of warm bodies.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Zen:
Considering the amount of work and research that went into making the TC, I think that would be a poor choice. Not to take anything away from Potatoman's mod, which I think is very good.

To Zen and fahdiz, I was not suggesting it as a solution, but as an option. I think people in this forum are becoming far too quick to jump on others for the slightest perceived "flawed thinking", no matter if they use smileys or not.

Though maybe this kind of decision should be made by those who play TC extensively, rather than Jotun.

That's a rather snide remark, don't you think? Especially since you don't personally know whether I've played TC or not (and I have, several times). By your thinking, only experts such as yourself are qualified to make suggestions. That's a pretty holier-than-thou attitude, and is unbecoming.

TC is so weak that it's usually the first nation to disappear in my SP games, often killed by AIs before I can get to them myself. My liking for Ashikaga aside, TC's weakness is why I've replaced them by Ashikaga. Heck, the indies I fight are tougher.

Originally posted by Arryn:
To Zen and fahdiz, I was not suggesting it as a solution, but as an option. I think people in this forum are becoming far too quick to jump on others for the slightest perceived "flawed thinking", no matter if they use smileys or not.

You stated your opinion of replacing it, I don't see how it could be considered not a 'solution' but an 'option' and the replies were just as viable as your 'option'.

And for the second, you are by far the most guilty of jumping for any sort of thinking or 'smiley faces'.

That's a rather snide remark, don't you think? Especially since you don't personally know whether I've played TC or not (and I have, several times). By your thinking, only experts such as yourself are qualified to make suggestions. That's a pretty holier-than-thou attitude, and is unbecoming.

You can offer suggestions, but you hardly came with an adequate reasoning for it, other than the samurai not being weak. As I said, for the amount of work that was put into creating the nation and their corrisponding themes, it would be a mistake to throw it all away.

I could care less what you feel is holier than thou. Because of your decisions to not play certain aspects of the game (blood), your opinion may be biased to things you know nothing about. The more time you play TC, you would find it's troops are but a small part of the nation that makes it weak and more specifically it is it's mages and the mounted units.

TC is so weak that it's usually the first nation to disappear in my SP games, often killed by AIs before I can get to them myself. My liking for Ashikaga aside, TC's weakness is why I've replaced them by Ashikaga. Heck, the indies I fight are tougher.

In my SP games, the first one to die is the one I choose, so I have had varied experiences. In all actuallity, my feeling on the 'weakest' nation in SP is Mictlan, because the AI does not steer clear of most normal troops and concentrate on what they are good at, which is blood. So they are at a significant disadvantage.

[ February 15, 2004, 23:18: Message edited by: Zen ]