Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by ywl:

Also, the Wraith Lord doesn't do you much good since it is not under your control. I haven't used the spell often but judging my experience with the combat AI, he would probably just rout and disappear once the undead riders are banished.

Obviously you've never or rarely have used this spell. For the 75-something times I've casted this spell the wraith lord has never routed. In fact the wraith lord by himself has wiped out provinces after the rest have died.

Originally posted by ywl:
And even if the riders successfully beat the local defense, I think it'll only turn the province neutral. A nuaisance but not much more.

The enemy province turns neutral then you march your troops into the territory which take the territory with little or no resistance. I don't know about you but having two or three provinces go neutral every turn is more then a small problem.

Pale Rider is a lower level spell which can give you similar undead riders. And to me, a more practical spell. [/QB]

Twice the cost for half the attack force... yeah thats a plan.


Also lets not forget people that 'master enslave' means you have to place your commander in the battefield... which means something could kill him.

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Graeme Dice... master enslave is a hundred times more difficult and dangerous to cast then ghost riders. Try and find a better match.

[ January 07, 2004, 16:13: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
with the combat AI, he would probably just rout and disappear once the undead riders are banished.

Obviously you've never or rarely have Twice the cost for half the attack force... yeah thats a plan.[/quote]
You're not including the cost of researching to level 9 as compared to the level required for pale riders, which is at least 1500 research points.

[ywl]

Originally posted by NTJedi:

quote:

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Originally posted by ywl:

Also, the Wraith Lord doesn't do you much good since it is not under your control. I haven't used the spell often but judging my experience with the combat AI, he would probably just rout and disappear once the undead riders are banished.

Obviously you've never or rarely have used this spell. For the 75-something times I've casted this spell the wraith lord has never routed. In fact the wraith lord by himself has wiped out provinces after the rest have died.

Originally posted by ywl:
And even if the riders successfully beat the local defense, I think it'll only turn the province neutral. A nuaisance but not much more.

The enemy province turns neutral then you march your troops into the territory which take the territory with little or no resistance. I don't know about you but having two or three provinces go neutral every turn is more then a small problem.

Pale Rider is a lower level spell which can give you similar undead riders. And to me, a more practical spell.

Twice the cost for half the attack force... yeah thats a plan.


Also lets not forget people that 'master enslave' means you have to place your commander in the battefield... which means something could kill him.

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Graeme Dice... master enslave is a hundred times more difficult and dangerous to cast then ghost riders. Try and find a better match. [/QB]

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I got hit with it in a game in Dom 1 and was not impressed. One necromancer or a few monks was enough to dispense them. The wraith lord didn't stay but there could be a change in the combat AI. I don't know.

Having two or three provinces going neutral is not good but as I said, if somebody got to Level 9 in a path, he could have done worse.

Matches:
"Horde from Hell" (30 Slaves) is not bad and you get to keep the troops afterwards.
"Send Horror" (15 Slaves) is powerful and it's one level lower. "Send Lesser Horror" (9 Slaves) is less potent but you can make it up with number.
"Arouse Hunger" (5 Gems) only gives you the lesser ghouls - but again, you can keep them. Ghouls are wonderful for defending seige.
"Call of the Wild" (15 Gems) is expensive and you can only target forest in Dom 2. But it's just a Level 3 spell.
"Tartarian Gate" (10 Gems): you can get a 100+ hps undead. If he wasn't feeble mind, you can even use a "Gift of Reason" to get his spell power. A better deal than harassing a single province to me.
"Fire from Afar" (10 Gems). I wasn't impressed until I once got hit by the AI. It looks like nothing but you can easily lose your important and expensive mages from this spell. And it's only Level 3 Evocation!
"Earth Attack" (5 Gems). Conjuration 8 and Earth 4. At the cost of 5 earth gems, you have like 80% probability of taking out one of your enemy's commander.

Ghost Rider might be a good deal for its cost. But at the requirements of Death 4, which is not exactly easy except for the death nations (Ermor, Ctis, et al), and Conjuration 9, it's very hard to be overpowered.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by ywl:
Matches:
"Horde from Hell" (30 Slaves) is not bad and you get to keep the troops afterwards.

THIS Spell costs 6-TIMES as much ! Not even close to being in the same ballpark.

"Send Horror" (15 Slaves) is powerful and it's one level lower.

Another spell which is 3 times the cost of ghost riders... plus you need a mage with both astral and blood. Not to mention that this spell currently doesn't work !

"Send Lesser Horror" (9 Slaves) is less potent but you can make it up with number.

This spell also does not work in the current Version. So there is no way to judge its effect.

"Arouse Hunger" (5 Gems) only gives you the lesser ghouls - but again, you can keep them. Ghouls are wonderful for defending seige.

Any province with a few points of defense and 4 archer-types could slaughter this spell.

"Call of the Wild" (15 Gems) is expensive and you can only target forest in Dom 2. But it's just a Level 3 spell.

3-times as expensive and not nearly as powerful as ghost riders. PLUS ghost riders can attack water-based provinces... this one cannot. PLUS the little wolves usually flee once 3 or 4 die... the Ghost Riders NEVER retreat!

"Tartarian Gate" (10 Gems): you can get a 100+ hps undead. If he wasn't feeble mind, you can even use a "Gift of Reason" to get his spell power. A better deal than harassing a single province to me.

Twice the cost...The cost also requires a level_7 death mage...one great unit but can only attack the front line unless you use some spell or item to help him. Ghost Riders can attack anywhere!

"Fire from Afar" (10 Gems). I wasn't impressed until I once got hit by the AI. It looks like nothing but you can easily lose your important and expensive mages from this spell. And it's only Level 3 Evocation!

Twice the cost as ghost riders and from my testing with a Level_6 fire mage it only kills about 9 units. Casting Ghost Riders twice on any province will kill lots more then 9 units with a province of 100 something units.

"Earth Attack" (5 Gems). Conjuration 8 and Earth 4. At the cost of 5 earth gems, you have like 80% probability of taking out one of your enemy's commander.

This targets only the commander... a good spell but is an assassination spell and ghost riders is an attack spell.
Ghost Rider might be a good deal for its cost. But at the requirements of Death 4, which is not exactly easy except for the death nations (Ermor, Ctis, et al), and Conjuration 9, it's very hard to be overpowered. [/QB][/quote]

[ January 07, 2004, 18:26: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Taqwus]

It's a Conj 9 spell. They're supposed to be pretty darn powerful.
It's not a terribly strong army, however, and unlike Army of the Dead and similar spells, it only hurts one province per cast. If you can find weak provinces to knock over using remote summons, summons which let you keep the units are much more powerful because you can set taxes to 200%, up province defence if you like, and move the survivors to attack nearby weak provinces. In addition, you can't really combine Ghost Riders with any other simultaneous remote summons, e.g. Army of the Dead, because they're not friendly... but summons like Army of the Dead, Horde from Hell, Imprint Souls, Call of the Winds etc are *stackable*. You can safely mass-cast these other summons into one province if you like, trash the locals, and then disperse to cause more damage in subsequent turns if it seems appropriate, or keep 'em as a single deep-penetration force.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
[QB]

quote:

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Originally posted by ywl:
Matches:
"Horde from Hell" (30 Slaves) is not bad and you get to keep the troops afterwards.

THIS Spell costs 6-TIMES as much ! Not even close to being in the same ballpark.

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30 blood slaves is a lot easier to come by than 30 death gems, considering that 50+ a turn is achievable from a single 10K population province.

[apoger]

You really cannot compare lesser summons to a level 9 spell. It's a whole different game when the high level stuff is researched.

Ghost Riders is a great spell and it does do good work. I doubt anyone is arguing that's it's weak.

However if you compare to other 9th level spells, you will find that the power level is not inappropriate.

We are talking about the same level of research that brings us effects such as;

Wish - Gems, Doom Horrors, you name it!
Utterdark - The whole worlds income reduced by 90%!
Flames from the Sky - Blows a chunk out of any army, anywhere.
Arcane Nexus - I can always use a few hundred astral gems every turn.


Yes Ghost Riders is strong and efficient, however we are talking about access to the most potent spells in creation.

The most capable death casters in the world can send an impressive undead force to strike at your lands? Sounds about right to me.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by ywl:

"Fire from Afar" (10 Gems). I wasn't impressed until I once got hit by the AI. It looks like nothing but you can easily lose your important and expensive mages from this spell. And it's only Level 3 Evocation!

The only spell I have lost more to playing SP is Burden of Time. I overlooked this spell early but if you can find a bunch of researchers to shoot at or get lucky and take out an uber mage its an incredible bargain. I like this spell and mean to have some fun with it.

cheers

Keir

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
30 blood slaves is a lot easier to come by than 30 death gems, considering that 50+ a turn is achievable from a single 10K population province. [/QB]

So how many blood mages will you have wasting their time hunting for these blood slaves! And how many are able to sacrifice the income/resources/supplies from the 10K population province. Again what your saying does not come as easy you're guessing.

Plus those imps in NO WAY do as much damage as the ghost riders. Do some tests and you'll see... not to mention check the stats of those little imps.
__________________________


APoger

most of the spells you mentioned cannot target any province on the map... unlike ghost riders. Even flames from the sky will only kill a percentage... where ghost riders will destroy armies. Enemy armies will still be standing with five or seven casts of the spells you listed. With five or seven casts of ghost riders how many armies AND provinces would be lost... LOTS!
my point is nothing destroys armies faster for the cost... and any level_4 death mage can do it. (unlike other spells at or below the level)

[ January 07, 2004, 20:45: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:

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Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
In all my PBEM and SP play in Dom1 and 2 I've never got to cast a 9th level spell.

Never? Strange... I found games with shifting alliances to often Last longer.

I'm curious, do you tend to play on small maps with permanent alliances? That's the only way I can imagine games consistently having such low research.

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I tend to play with no alliances or team games. As the years goes on most PBEM games I'm involved in include a fair number of players I've known since a teenager but who now live far away. As we play many games together ruthless stab in back type games are not the best way to go. There is also generally a feeling that if the game is as good as over then let the lead player win and get onto the next game as most if not all of us don't not enjoy playing monster sized games at all. Once the game goes far enough it becomes a MM nightmare and this is true of other PBEM games we played before finding Dom.

While I do understand the phenomenon of shifting alliances keeping a game going for ever I have seldom experianced it even playing cut throat games of Stars! with total strangers. Maybe I'm just a bit to persuasive but I find with diplomacy the game ends much quicker. After over a decade of talking my to victory its been very refreshing to have no diplomacy and have to tough it out.

Another reason why games I'm in are shorter is the way I play. I play very fast and aggressive. In Stars! I regularily exceded the economic targets necessary to be a monster race and combined this with extremely aggressive play generally attacking before my opponents thought it was possible. I would often get responses to my warnings I was looking to attack someone of the flavour of "you are an idiot - nobody wants an early war as it ruins their economy so sod off" - the following turn my nicely hidden fleet jumps into their HW which vanishes in a blaze of nucleur weapons. That is generally the end of discussion with that player. I tend to end games quick and thats why most of the games I am in don't reach level 9 magic.

In Stars! I never used Nubians and many players made commments to me similar to yours Jasper - how come? Because the game ended before then.

I've played enough games (I've been a multi-player addict for over 25 years) with a wide variety of settings and different Groups of players that I've come to the conclusion that this is generally the way it works when I'm playing. *shrugs*

Cheers

Keir