upkeep

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Dont birds get a patrol bonus?

They have as much patrol bonus as a draconian flyer... yet the tiny black hawks have a gold upkeep and draconians don't.
Maybe they only eat the really expensive and sophisticated bird food !!


The developers know the real reason... but they've locked away that secret in a security box at The Chicago Bank... at least that's the rumor on the street.

[ July 14, 2004, 19:26: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Boron:
you're just kidding or ?
[...]
for 45water/earthgems you get 15 trolls + 1 king . the trolls themselves are not very strong ihmo .

Not strong? Who's kidding now?

for 30 death you get 20 wights e.g. which are far stronger .

You're comparing a Conjuration 6 level 3 spell to a Conjuration 9 level 6 spell here. The huges differences in requirements should be a hint your comparison isn't really meaningful.

Besides, there's no really obvious to kill a Troll. OTOH you obviously haven't seen what a few Wither Bones can do to your 20 Wights yet, and it's likely most nations will have access to that spell when you reach Conjuration 9. When that'll happen, you'll think you better had recruited militia instead.

the kings are nice but they can't summon allies and i think aren't too good sc's either so all thems pretty ok to me . a airqueen e.g. which could summon allies 10 turns should easily beat a troll king with his 15 trolls .

and best thing it would give water magic some amphibian summons.

Ah, Water magic. So we're talking about Sea Kings here. They may not have a 'summon allies' option, but they generate water gems that can be used to summon a Sea Troll/turn at no gem cost - so in the end, the result is exactly the same. While your Air Queen is busy summonin allies, the King can do the same and get 10 more Trolls for the same base cost - ie, nil. That's a more meaningful comparison.

[Boron]

hm a completely NEW idea :
if all magic summons would need upkeep ?

some gold some perhaps 0,x gems / turn ?

like a vampire lord wants 1 blood slave every 2 turns ?
the magical leader units small gemupkeepcost , the magical units like wights gold ?

to the further discussion :
@ nagot the sea trolls of course should no longer get 1 water gem / turn . instead they get summon allies .

and what do you say to my comparison of trolls with draconians ? it is a reasonable ihmo .

[NTJedi]

Boron... those are some nice ideas but the amount of work for the developers is far to great thus we won't see this for Dominions_2.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
I'm not sure why the developers decided to have black hawks cost an upkeep.... they want/need money the same as great lions, wolves and other animals. Perhaps they just don't like birds.

They have an upkeep as a holdover from DOM1 I believe, since otherwise they were by far the cheapest patrollers.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Boron:
and what do you say to my comparison of trolls with draconians ? it is a reasonable ihmo .

Yes, it makes more sense to me, although both troop types have very different uses. Still, 3 points that are worth mentionning:

(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

(2) I have many many uses for air gems, not so many for water - mostly Sea Trolls and small items like clams or boots - so even if I find myself with 45 air gems at a moment (rare) it's likely I will burn them into something else than Draconians.

(3) Most of the time I don't need the Draconians flying ability as bad as I need the Sea Trolls amphibian and 'need not eat' abilities. You could argue the same abilities are available on undead troops, to which I'd reply I'll always get more punch from 100 undead + 20 Sea Trolls than from 100 undead alone. And alchemizing water to astral to death to recruit more undead instead of Trolls isn't really an efficient use of gems in my book - even if you insert clams in the chain (this may not be entirely true if these clams have been producing gems for scores of game turns, but that's another topic - I'm not really the kind of player who sacrifices the short term to the long term anyway).

So in the end I find myself using Sea Trolls much more often than Draconians - I don't even think I ever used the latter in multiplayer.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians.
Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

[ July 14, 2004, 21:23: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boron:
and what do you say to my comparison of trolls with draconians ? it is a reasonable ihmo .

Yes, it makes more sense to me, although both troop types have very different uses. Still, 3 points that are worth mentionning:

(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

---

They can be summoned individually, with 0 upkeep, at one magic site.


(2) I have many many uses for air gems, not so many for water - mostly Sea Trolls and small items like clams or boots - so even if I find myself with 45 air gems at a moment (rare) it's likely I will burn them into something else than Draconians.


Heh. So - because Water magic sucks so bad, and there are so few other decent uses for water gems, the sea trolls are fine as is?

(3) (...) I'd reply I'll always get more punch from 100 undead + 20 Sea Trolls than from 100 undead alone.

Sheesh. And 100 undead + 20 draconians has a lot more punch than 100 undead alone, as the draconians attack the commanders in the rear. 100 undead + 20 vine men has a lot more punch, 100 undead + 20 bog beasts, etc, etc. Your point is?

[ July 14, 2004, 21:48: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by NTJedi:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians.

---

Yes, and to get that leader you need to summon the whole pack first. Exactly what I said.

Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.

So if you lack air gems but have 180 earth you'll prefer to alchemize them to 90 astral then to 45 air so you can summon Draconians for free?

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game.

[NTJedi]

correct copy above

[ July 14, 2004, 22:34: Message edited by: NTJedi ]