Hidden in Snow

[Meglobob]

Zath said:
Given the path requirements of this spell, the mage is only worthwhile if it gets picks in earth magic. Without picks in earth magic, you might as well just cast Streams from Hades for guaranteed water and death magic.

The expected number of mages per cast is 1 (random between 0 and 2), and the chance for each mage to get at least 2 picks in earth is 1/2 (from 3x 50% picks), so on average we can expect to spend 110 water gems for 2+ levels of earth magic.

Empowering two levels of earth from scratch costs only 80 earth gems, is guaranteed with no chance of failure, and can be used on any mage of your choice with the desired combination of magic paths.

Excellent post by Zath.

Hidden in Snow as it stands is currently a, 'no brainer' not to cast.

I am playing MA Caelum in MP at the moment and for the record I cast stream of hades to get D3 and found a amazon mage to get 1E and traded for earth boots. Far better than casting a 55W gem spell and 100% certain.

Don't get me wrong the spell is a good idea, description great, thematically good, its the mechanics of the spell.

It needs tinkering with, give it a power boost, reduce gem cost or give more goodies for the gem cost.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Personally, I'm not attracted by the mages, at all.
I'm LA Atlantis, often, and have w3d2 mages, quite a few with random air or earth.

I don't want the whole rationalization for this spell to be the mages, I just want them to be the gravy. I'm interested in the Unfrozen/Unfrozen Warriors, thank you very much.

[Kristoffer O]

Meglobob said:

Excellent post by Zath.

Hidden in Snow as it stands is currently a, 'no brainer' not to cast.

I am playing MA Caelum in MP at the moment and for the record I cast stream of hades to get D3 and found a amazon mage to get 1E and traded for earth boots. Far better than casting a 55W gem spell and 100% certain.

Don't get me wrong the spell is a good idea, description great, thematically good, its the mechanics of the spell.

It needs tinkering with, give it a power boost, reduce gem cost or give more goodies for the gem cost.

I suppose I am playing MA Mictlan in the same MP game and have already cast Hidden in snow once. I'm quite satisfied with the results and I suppose intend to continue casting the spell.

- The unfrozen actually thanked the Totl, Lord of Light, Enemy of Darkness, for their release from the Caelian ice prison. They claim Lord Flasheart wronged them in ancient times when they exterminated the Yazatas once living in the Caelian mountains. Now they are intent on vengeance, and it is only through Laws and stern justice thet they are prevented from finishing their ancient task of eliminating the Yazatas and their descendants.

Of the three paths available to the mage only water is readily available to mictlan to any greater extent. The addition of unfrozen mages is a splendid way to use gems. After a one empowerment it is better by far to cast hidden in snow than empower another of your other mages in death or earth. If you get an E2 guy you can then get trolls or whatever.

Also, I find the kokythiad less sexy (she is actually fear inspiring ). Easily killed by stray arrows and stuff. Stealthy though. And she needs waterempowerment for many users, wich is the same path as the spell. Simpler to empower in death only and use watergems for the casting.

[PvK]

I see Zath's line of argument, but it's overstated and focused on one perspective. The mages are not the only valuable units produced, and you'll generally get several mages in the effort used to get an E2 or E3. Saying the other mages and troops aren't "worthwhile" is a narrow argument. Even if your main purpose is to get an E2-3 mage, the fact that you get other mages and troops doesn't mean they have zero value. The chance that you may get more mages and units than you expect, or that you may get them sooner or cheaper, also has value - it just depends on whether you choose that value, or whether you prefer sure things, which is a preference, not an absolute value. As for "just empowering a mage" in Earth magic, that's not so easy when you are a nation who lacks earth magic, and it results in an existing mage getting better, not getting a bunch of other mages and unique troops as part of the deal.

From a balance and flavor perspective, I'd say it's good that it is uncertain and has significant cost, because otherwise any nation able to cast Hidden In Snow could be considered to also have E2-3 magic, which would blur the distinct strengths and weaknesses of the nations' path variety.

I like the idea of making it more expensive and giving more of the unfrozen troops.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I used the spell in one game, when I was LA Atlantis. My opponent at the time was double blessed Mictlan. The reason I cast it was for the extra magic paths, but I was happy with the troops. I ended up casting it a second time as much as for the troops as the mages. when I sent them into battle against Mictlans main army, I cast darkness, and placed the unfrozen at the front lines. I lost many of my other troops, but practically all of the unfrozen survived. Even in later battles, without the darkness, and the unfrozen still on the front lines, they did just as good against the Jaguar warriors.

I find hidden in snow a strong spell. For undead the troops have great stats. They have high hit points, high defense, high magic resitance, and chill. The leaders make decent thugs, and there is good potential for the mages. There may be better spells, but if you are only at level six in research, it can be a good strategic option to use.

[PvK]

See, I think now the spell should be made even LESS reliable, but maybe a little better on _average_, so actually very good when it works. And require mountain terrain. That way, one can't just go around automatically finding hidden tribes everywhere. And most importantly, the T-shirt will still be valid comedy, and the players who hate to get unlucky will still be annoyed and not use it, even though on average, they should. ;-D

[vfb]

From the Dominions 3 progress page...

19th feb
* Hidden in snow reworking. More units, higher cost. Turmoil, magic and luck effects.

Cool! Hate to poke a gift horse in the eye with a pointed stick, but how about the cold scales ... do they actually have any effect on Hidden in Snow? I know they're supposed to, but it doesn't seem like it (or maybe it's just the randomness).

[Lingchih]

The first belly-laugh I have ever had from a Dominions post. Nicely done Borsuk.

[Saulot]

Hear hear Borsuk!

Also, this development pleases me. As one of the more thematically interesting spells, it was sad to have it on the sidelines.

[Kristoffer O]

Cold doesn't have any effect. After all it should be easier to get a tribe when a glacier is melting. Perhaps making it castable only in mountains, but that would be a new feature I'm not sure I would manage program-wise. More of a JK thing. (Actually I'm a bit proud of adding the scale effect in the spell, I wasn't sure I could do it without help).

Turmoil and magic scales increases the ratio of warriors.
Luck increases the mage chance.
Changes to the mage chance makes the first one easier to get and the second less common.
Approximately an additional 20 units. About 40 seems to be a common random result.
Cost upped to 75.

Not sure about cost balancing yet. Beta will have to say something, but you can as well if you have opinions on the above info.