Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?

[Baalz]

Well, I do think clams are in a different class than blood stones and fever fetishes as they're much easier to mass and astral gems are much more useful late game than earth or fire. It's also wrong to think that it takes 15 turns for them to pay off - there are several ways to reduce this ROI time not to mention that astral pearls are often more valuable than water or nature. To be honest, I can't think of much more scary than R'yleh suitably turtled underwater keeping the Forge of the Ancients up for very long (or closely allying with someone who does).

The thing about clamhoarding is there is *no* counter and I think it's a mischaractarization to even really think of it as much of a risky delayed gratification in a lot of circumstances. For the cost of two clams (at whatever discount you can wrangle) I've now got one "free" mind hunt per turn as well as building long term exponential growth. Win-win in a lot of circumstances where water gems don't have a high value use.

My main problem with it is most everybody agrees it's so overwhelmingly powerful that everyone must do it if they want to be competitive, and it adds micro which most everyone hates. I look at it this way, would the game be more or less fun without clam hoarding? If its not really a tactical choice because everybody must do it in long games then removing it doesn't reduce your tactical choices it just reduces micro. Better than removing it though is to nerf it cleverly enough that it is more of a risky choice and therefore not a no-brainer.

[Reverend Zombie]

Baalz said:
My main problem with it is most everybody agrees it's so overwhelmingly powerful that everyone must do it if they want to be competitive,

Not everybody, at least among poll-responders.

It would be interesting to know how many of the nations listed as winners in the Hall of Honor clamnmed.

[Xietor]

I do not think looking at the hall of fame has any value.

1. You would have to know the size of the map. Clams are not going to be a factor in small-medium games.

2. How many water provinces and races were in the game. It is much easier to clam if you are a water race and are not worried about being attacked early in the game.

3. What is the skill level of your opponents both in the game and the ones neighboring you.

4. Diplomacy. It is hard to say race "x" is better than race "y" because if "x" is feared then he may be ganged up on early out of mutual fear by weaker races "a" "b" and "c," allowing race "y" to win the game even though it is not as strong as "x."

So I think input from players the community respects as knowledgeable players is of more value.

[Tichy]

Why not attach a negative to clams, like horror mark, insanity, curse or disease? It creates a drawback, and also has the effect of taking some of them out of play over time. The problem now seems to be that there's no downside to the strategy (except for monotony, and people getting annoyed at you.)

[Baalz]

Ew, I wouldn't suggest anything that encourages more micro while leaving the same utility if you do it right. I'm in a game right now with my first and last fever fetish farm - I finally said screw it and am forging 30-odd rings of regen because it's too much of a headache. Not the most competitive thing to do but I was getting to dread my turns - "which of these ever increasing number of diseased guys have less than 3 hps left?"

[CUnknown]

Clams are nerfed strongly in dom3 relative to dom2.. I feel like this nerf makes them just right, except in long games. Perhaps a mod making clams more expensive to be used in long games would solve the problem?

[Reverend Zombie]

CUnknown said:
Clams are nerfed strongly in dom3 relative to dom2.. I feel like this nerf makes them just right, except in long games. Perhaps a mod making clams more expensive to be used in long games would solve the problem?

I think there is just such a mod for those "all nations" games.

[Meglobob]

CUnknown said:
Clams are nerfed pretty strongly in dom3 relative to dom2.. I feel like this nerf makes them just right, except in long games. Perhaps a mod making clams more expensive to be used in long games would solve the problem?

I think the 62 player megagame has influenced alot of people on clams and clamming.

Velusions already said he will include a mod to make them more expensive if he starts another such game.

Rather then changing them in the vanilla game and effecting everybody, its probably best that a mod be applied in long MP's. The host/modder can then change them as he sees fit and people can choose for themselves wether they wish to play or not.

[Reverend Zombie]

Xietor said:
I do not think looking at the hall of fame has any value.

1. You would have to know the size of the map. Clams are not going to be a factor in small-medium games.

2. How many water provinces and races were in the game. It is much easier to clam if you are a water race and are not worried about being attacked early in the game.

3. What is the skill level of your opponents both in the game and the ones neighboring you.

4. Diplomacy. It is hard to say race "x" is better than race "y" because if "x" is feared then he may be ganged up on early out of mutual fear by weaker races "a" "b" and "c," allowing race "y" to win the game even though it is not as strong as "x."

So I think input from players the community respects as knowledgeable players is of more value.

I disagree. If most MP games are not being won by clam-hoarders, we can say that under normal conditions it's not an issue.

If clamming is only an issue on a. large maps b. with clamming water nations c. with player of equal (preumably high) skill d. who nevertheless do not use diplomacy to gang up on the clammer who is "stronger" and would otherwise win, then you are talking about a limited set of circumstances.

The response to a turtling clammer should be to rush (crush?) them, not change the game to eliminate their strategy.

[Velusion]

I do have a big-game mod for use in larger games where gem producing items are increased in cost which I *hope* helps somewhat with large games (Sophistry and Nuance are using them so we'll see).

While you can mod a "fix" for anything the thread is addressing vanilla games.

The real fix would be to somehow scale these to work with larger games and a number of suggestions have been offered (many probably unfeasible). I don't think Dom3 actually scales that great in a number of other areas either (i.e. Arcane Nexus).

That said, I seriously doubt these scaling problems will ever be addressed. For now we just have to use mods to adjust things, which is a perfectly fine secondary option.