How do I Beat Back Rush Tactics?

[Baalz]

CUnknown said:
If you're talking about positive scales across the board, then yeah, I agree with you. But, I'm not sure if you'd get any arguement about positive scales across the board being a bad idea like 99% of the time. I mean, I don't think Baalz is arguing for that kind of scale setup. Are you Baalz?

Yeah, actually I am. Take LA Arco for instance. Compare a fairly standard awake combat pretender setup:
Dom 10 Awake Prince of Death
Order -3 Misfortune -2 sloth -1 magic -1
Level 5 death magic

VS an extreme scales setup:
Dominion 7 Imprisoned Oracle
Order -3, Productivity -3, Growth -3, Luck � 3, Magic � 1
Level 5 astral magic


The first one you've got the obvious benefits of your awake pretender. With the second one you gain:
14% more gold plus the growth over time from growth/productivity
Some substantial amount more gold from the 5 level luck shift, I'd guess on the order of about 15% once you count gold loss from barbarian attacks, temple loss, etc. shifting from Misfortutune -2. Obviously I'm pulling this number out of thin air, but whatever it is it's substantial.
Despite the equality of the magic scales you'll be dropping castles faster due to your extra gold so your research will be faster.
60% more resources - this means 60% more of those 62 resource elephants for your initial expansion (and defense), 60% more heavy infantry later on for your meatshields.
Plus the more minor benefits like supply and national heroes
Plus all the other benefits of luck - gems, items, free chaff, etc.

Now the primary drawback, obviously, is the case of a strong rush (which as with Llamabeast, I very seldom see). Ignoring this possibility for a second the good scales version is clearly superior assuming you're expanding with elephants as fast as possible and sending out expansion parties every 1-3 turns. The 60% bonus in resources is critical in the first few turns (not to mention the ~30% gold bonus) as you'll get out your first few expansion parties a turn or two earlier thus roughly equalizing the indie territories you can grab on the first year or so compared to using the PoD. At this point you're clearly better off with the good scales as all that extra gold income compounds into castles and research, gems flow in from your luck scales and you land a couple national heroes.

So, back to the question of can you defend against a strong rush? Obviously you're more vulnerable than if you have an awake combat pretender, but by the time you're realistically looking at a rush attacking your capital (around the end of year one) you should have alt-3 done which gives you body ethereal and earth meld to back up those impressive elephants and good infantry, or evo-3 and thaum-1 so the guy trying to hit your capital can suck on a 10 person fireball flinging communion while trying to hack through your fairly tough heavy infantry and decent PD. You'll also be pulling in more than 50% more gold than somebody of a similar size who took crappy scales to support a bless rush and not many people are going to be able to keep up with your initial elephant expansion. More vulnerable than having a PoD? Yes. Helpless in the face of a rush? Hardly. The benefit to me is more than the cost - particularly in the very common case that I don't have to defend against an early rush.

Again, not saying this is clearly superior, just that it's a viable choice in some circumstances.

[thejeff]

Arco is something of an odd case, though.

Elephants are a rush strategy and can probably counter most bless rushes on their own.

More vulnerable than an elephant rush backed up by a PoD? Sure. More vulnerable than, for example, MA Ulm with a PoD? Probably not.



It's actually one of the things I like about LA Arco. An early rush strategy that's actually helped by good scales for the late game.

[Baalz]

Yes, you can also pull off similar things (to a somewhat lesser degree) with a couple other nations. Pangea is another one I'll sometimes play with extreme scales (though I generally prefer to use my pretender for some magic diversity there) and there are some others I'd consider it for. Like I said, its all about having he right units to back up your strategy, just like trying to lay down an uber bless.

[Velusion]

Baalz said:
Again, not saying this is clearly superior, just that it's a viable choice in some circumstances.

I agree with all your observations really. I do think it can be viable with the right nation.

But the main question for the post was "how do I avoid\beat an early rush." Like you said - the benefits might outway the risk - but if the issue is how to avoid/beat the risk most effectively then an awake combat pretender or counter bless is the best bet.

It's all just risk assessment and desired playstyle IMHO. I've never wanted to feel or look weak early in the game so I've always put having a strong early game high on my priorities. As a result (IMHO) I've never been rushed early and I often make it into the late game. Of course... for all my 2nd and 3rd place medals I've never actually won a large game... so take what you will from my view

[thejeff]

Even without a counter bless of your own, some nations can counter bless rushers with other "troops", elephants being the obvious example.

Sauromatia's hydras and poison archers where brutal to Vanheim glamor sacreds in one game I played. Maybe massed skinshifter or trampling Minotaurs? At least against some sacred types.

Especially if you're only trying to delay long enough for a sleeping SC to wake up and get equipped.

[llamabeast]

And, being he game host, perhaps players do not want to rush you right away? Just a thought, since I have not played in any of your games.

It had occurred to me, though I certainly hope it's not true. The server's automated guys, feel free to take me down!

[Zeldor]

Nah, simply everyone loves you and it is rare to play with you, so why would they want to kill you fast? Anyone harming llamabeast early would surely be ganged on fast

[Aezeal]

I think that llama does have some extra protection being the host.. I'm pretty sure it made me want to be your friend of course you keep being a #(*)$&*&#*) so it never works out

[vfb]

Don't worry llama ... I have no compunctions about attacking the game host, and I'm sure there are many others like me too. So you aren't missing out on all the fun.

As far as rushes go, I've rushed in the past. And been rushed more than once too. It's never been in turn 12, it's always around turn 6 or 7. This is on 15-province-per-player maps.

It is necessary to prepare for a rush if you don't want to get creamed, I learned. But preparing to defend against a rush usually means you're capable of your own rush (unless your defense is monkey PD !!!!11!!). And when you see that your closest neighbor has no bless, and has not popped out a god yet ... well, the temptation is there.

Not only that, being prepared for a rush means you aren't going to have problems with expanding into indies, in the normal case where no rush occurs.

[Digress]

I have launched a rush or two but it always seems to trigger instant bad karma.

The moment I attack one opponent I discover new and insanely aggressive neighbours who attack me immediately. This seems to happen very early and well before anyone has had time to do much in the way of scouting (before turn 12).