Jomon Analysis: 3.21

[Sombre]

Hmm. Dai Oni aren't the easiest things to cast. I would think considering the effort required to get them, you could go for a generic SC like a tart.

[archaeolept]

it's not really available, due to paths, and isn't that great a buy at any rate - certainly not better than the normal generic options. Perhaps chrispedersen is thinking of another nation?

[KissBlade]

I'd have to chime on that sentiment. Jomon has limited pretender choices (the main standouts being the Wyrm, the cyclops and the Ghost King which are standard) No Prince of Death! =(
Magic isn't as great as the manual claims either. I've pretty much highlighted what archae terms the "RNG" weakness of nonsacred mages. And the fact that they're only move 1 really is fail.
SC chassis? Well one can argue that Dai Oni's are safer than Tartarians in that they require no GoR's, have handy paths (nothing like cyclop tarts though! =( )and no shattered souls. The extra cost makes it suspect if they're worth as much as tarts but I wouldn't say it really puts them over the top since Jomon has no innate death magic access. (And since you need your pretender to do some heavy lifting, him being limited to site searching really kicks you in the pants.)

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by KissBlade

Jomon has no innate death magic access. (And since you need your pretender to do some heavy lifting, him being limited to site searching really kicks you in the pants.)

Hmmm? Shouldn't he summon a revenant to do his site-searching for him? Death is really easy to bootstrap if you can just find some gem income.

-Max

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by KissBlade

I'd have to chime on that sentiment. Jomon has limited pretender choices (the main standouts being the Wyrm, the cyclops and the Ghost King which are standard) No Prince of Death! =(
Magic isn't as great as the manual claims either. I've pretty much highlighted what archae terms the "RNG" weakness of nonsacred mages. And the fact that they're only move 1 really is fail.
SC chassis? Well one can argue that Dai Oni's are safer than Tartarians in that they require no GoR's, have handy paths (nothing like cyclop tarts though! =( )and no shattered souls. The extra cost makes it suspect if they're worth as much as tarts but I wouldn't say it really puts them over the top since Jomon has no innate death magic access. (And since you need your pretender to do some heavy lifting, him being limited to site searching really kicks you in the pants.)

Having three pretender choices is sufficient. Who cares how many bad choices there are?

Look, I'm not saying that Jomon *isn't* weak. In fact, the perception of weakness is the *biggest* disadvantage Jomon has. People would rather eat them, than ally with them.

However, I stand on what I said previously. Jomon has adequate pretenders, adequate mages, good SCs (both in access to generics and in Dai Onis).

In Zeldors great team preponderance game - Jomon rated a 1 pt.
Niefle rated an 8. Niefle is not 8 times more likely to win a game than jomon - nor 8 times more powerful.

Sure, perhaps they're 10-15% weak - or underaverage.

[archaeolept]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

However, I stand on what I said previously. Jomon has adequate pretenders, adequate mages, good SCs (both in access to generics and in Dai Onis).

Except that's not what you said. I understand your post is a whole page back, so you shouldn't be expected to be able to find it. Here, let me help

Jomon has fine pretender chassis, good mages, good SC Chassis.

Jomon's base game pretender chassis selection is mediocre. It has a handful of adequate choices; fewer than most. And its general access to the normal death SCs is as poor as any nation's, due to Jomon's weakness in death.

Its Mages are versatile, but slow, fairly expensive (as non-sacred), paths are low level, and you cannot depend on getting the paths you need. They are poor for battle magic due to the difficulties getting them around anywhere. Their mages are not bad, but certainly do not make up for their other deficiencies.

They have no SC chassis that stands out. Kenoku are a good thug chassis in some situations. Dai Oni are not normally available, and not a very good deal anyways. Fire and Death? How are you casting that?

Jomon has three clear issues:
1. Its troops are mediocre, especially base game.
2. Its mages are a bit pricey in the long term, rather random and micro-managey, and, most importantly, extremely slow.
3. It has nothing to give it a leg up for the mid or late game. Most nations have a strong recruitable mage, or thug, or SC, or Summons that fill in those niches. Jomon just doesn't really (its summons mostly have a slight use, even though they are cool).

In CBM it is more competitive, and I don't think Jomon deserves QM's 1 rating. But in the normal game it probably does.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by archaeolept

Except that's not what you said. I understand your post is a whole page back, so you shouldn't be expected to be able to find it. Here, let me help

Jomon's base game pretender chassis selection is mediocre. It has a handful of adequate choices; fewer than most. And its general access to the normal death SCs is as poor as any nation's, due to Jomon's weakness in death.

Its Mages are versatile, but slow, fairly expensive (as non-sacred), paths are low level, and you cannot depend on getting the paths you need. They are poor for battle magic due to the difficulties getting them around anywhere. Their mages are not bad, but certainly do not make up for their other deficiencies.

They have no SC chassis that stands out. Kenoku are a good thug chassis in some situations. Dai Oni are not normally available, and not a very good deal anyways. Fire and Death? How are you casting that?

Jomon has three clear issues:
1. Its troops are mediocre, especially base game.
2. Its mages are a bit pricey in the long term, rather random and micro-managey, and, most importantly, extremely slow.
3. It has nothing to give it a leg up for the mid or late game. Most nations have a strong recruitable mage, or thug, or SC, or Summons that fill in those niches. Jomon just doesn't really (its summons mostly have a slight use, even though they are cool).

In CBM it is more competitive, and I don't think Jomon deserves QM's 1 rating. But in the normal game it probably does.

Your quibbling over the difference in words between fine and adequate? I think Jomons SC chassis are perfectly fine AND adequeate- and if you read my other posts - I do exactly mean that they are about as good as every one else that is run of the mill.

Look, I agree that they are weak. However, I am of the opinion (as are many people) that many other factors are HIGHly relevent in the game. Troops and mages et. al aren't that determinative -if they were, you would see MP victories much more tightly clustered by race.

Diplomatic ability.
Player Knowledge of the game.
Random Events - such as starting position or magic sites.

Shrug.. I'm not interesting in starting a flame war. Yes, Jomon is weak. I just don't think any nation out there rates a 1.

Look, except for the amount of time involved, I would be perfectly happy playing v. niefle 10 times. And I would expect to win more than once against a reasonably competent player (which is what I expect my skill level is). Against a newb, I would probably break even.

[MaxWilson]

I've never played Jomon, and they sure don't excite me, but Chris is persuasive. Looking at Jomon, I do note that (like Arco) they have relatively cheap mages who all have elemental access and are communion-capable, which to me says "Versatile, instantly-reconfigurable battlemages who rain fire, ice, magma, or lightning as appropriate, and also Stellar Cascades spam your SCs."

And generic SCs aren't weak, they're just more boring. (Although my favorite generic SC (Wraith Lord) isn't available to Jomon.)

-Max

[archaeolept]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

I've never played Jomon, and they sure don't excite me, but Chris is persuasive. Looking at Jomon, I do note that (like Arco) they have relatively cheap mages who all have elemental access and are communion-capable, which to me says "Versatile, instantly-reconfigurable battlemages who rain fire, ice, magma, or lightning as appropriate, and also Stellar Cascades spam your SCs."

And generic SCs aren't weak, they're just more boring. (Although my favorite generic SC (Wraith Lord) isn't available to Jomon.)

-Max

of course Jomon has access to many paths. How, pray tell, are you getting these expensive communions to battle, w/ a map move of one? they have to dawdle along, ripe for harrassment and counter-attack.

It is also rather disingenuous to say a nation has good SC's when what it has is the same SCs as anyone else. Well, ok, it has worse access to these due to Jomon's weakness in death magic.

Anyone claiming that Jomon has good access to SCs must concommitantly agree that everyone does, which makes the valuation "good" rather meaningless.

Jomon does have access to death 1, however, through the Nushi.

(Although my favorite generic SC (Wraith Lord) isn't available to Jomon.)

say what?

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by archaeolept

How, pray tell, are you getting these expensive communions to battle, w/ a map move of one? they have to dawdle along, ripe for harrassment and counter-attack.

They're recruitable-anywhere, and mapmove doesn't matter when moving through enemy territory anyway. Mapmove 2 would be a convenience of course, but usually in a situation like this (mapmove 1 recruitable-anywhere mages, like LA Agartha's Ktonian necromancers) you just produce them near the front lines. Unlike Agartha, Jomon has the ability to forge a few pairs of winged boots and use them for ferrying mages around; I've tried that with Agartha when I manage to snag Obscuro, but in practice it's less hassle to just build mages where you need them.

Recall that I've never played Jomon, I'm just looking at their unit list. The mages look serviceable but you're right that strategic mobility appears limited, which it always is anyway when you're planning on communions. (Teleporting a 10-man communion around is not generally cost-effective.)

Originally Posted by archaeolept

It is also rather disingenuous to say a nation has good SC's when what it has is the same SCs as anyone else. Well, ok, it has worse access to these due to Jomon's weakness in death magic.

Anyone claiming that Jomon has good access to SCs must concommitantly agree that everyone does, which makes the valuation "good" rather meaningless.

Jomon does have access to death 1, however, through the Nushi.

say what?

I.e. I didn't know about the Nushi. (What does it have, D2?) Also, on second thought, I can't think of that many good SCs that come out of the elemental trees except for the uniques, so maybe Jomon doesn't have "good" generic SC access either. Troll King is probably the best one available.

I don't think a nation has to have *national* SCs in order to have *good* SCs. The paths a nation can access are a major part of its national character.

-Max