Scouting/Recon

[DRG]

Originally Posted by c_of_red

Jeeps, like armored cars, scout cars, etc have crews. I assume that the crew of a scout vehicle has been trained on observations techniques and has practiced those techniques until they are better at them then the average GI.
Sort of like why in the game a crew has to remount it's own vehicle, or why a rifle squad cannot grab the Sagger left laying on the ground after it's crew got mowed down several turns ago.
Scouting is a skill set, an MOS, 19D according to this;
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjobs/a/19d.htm

All I can say to you is I know scouts in the game can behave as scouts do in reality spotting the enemy and remaining unseen if handled correctly WITHOUT having to resort to coded "eyeball GSR"

Don

[Imp]

They work perfectly well if used as intended, as said the one benefit they have over a squad is they are harder to detect.
The majority of my scouts normaly survive so long as I do not ask to much of them.
Trying to get all the way to a rear area or take out a tank help a unit in at tricky situation is what gets them killed. Urban warfare & jungles to but they are dangerous locals period.

A point & I may be wrong but scouts generally do have better chance to spot than a squad. Most scout units are in effect a squad the game has split into 2 half squads to aid it in said mission so man for man blah blah.

[Wdll]

From experience scout units and scout vehicles work very well. Usually against my forces, but they do work. Sometimes it feels like they are a bit too good, but that is perhaps not the most accurate way of explaining it. When I have two mech platoons walker over a scout inf unit over say 3 turns, all of them dismount and look around, and none of them detect the scouts, then I don't know how you say it, but I say the scout units work.

[DRG]

That's becasue the AI does not move at one or two hexes per turn like a human would trying to sneak in. ( thought everyone knew this.....) In the AI's universe the point of scouts is to get a response from the enemy so that artillery ( and other weapons and units )can be applied. If they get in close so much the better and they are coded not to move closer than 1 hex from a KNOWN position but it's apples and oranges comparing the way the AI uses scouts and the way a human would

Don

[vyrago]

I've been experimenting with scouts a bit and I agree that scout squads can manage to be sneaky but scout vehicles cant.

Thermal sights should make a world of difference, not just add more hexes to sight range. recon is an important part of mobile warfare and a scout unit should be adept at movement to contact, spotting and ID of enemy and disengagement.

im trying to discover the 'safe' speed for vehicles to move without always being detected.

I also think some of sizes need revision.

example: Canadian Forces (with which im familiar).

M113 size 3
LARV Coyote size 5
Leopard C3 size 5

hmmmm. dunno about that.....

I would put a LAV around size 4, but thats just me and im not even sure how much that would help either.

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by vyrago

M113 size 3
LARV Coyote size 5
Leopard C3 size 5

With those sizes, I think you will find it hard to be sneaky. More than anything, I would look for cheap and fast in a recon vehicle. It would probably be good to buy it out of support points also. I don't like to have units that get zapped frequently in my core, but that's my opinion.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by vyrago

I've been experimenting with scouts a bit and I agree that scout squads can manage to be sneaky but scout vehicles cant.

OF COURSE "scout vehicles" cannot manage to be "sneaky" any more than any other vehicle of comparable size. Do they get some cloak of invisibility because they may have extra surveillance gear ? A Coyote is 6.39 m. long and 2.69 m high. Please explain how something 20 feet long and nearly 9 feet high is going to be any "sneakier" on the battlefield than anything else that size just because it's a "scout" vehicle ??

It has good eyes with a 45 vision, you get it to where it can see what you want it to see then you wait for the enemy to appear and if you need to do foot recon for that ideal location then you sent out foot scouts not fart about "sneaking" around with the vehicle because something that big just isn't built to "sneak". If you need to get though to the edge of the tree line you do it one hex at a time and that will reduce your chances of being seen while moving.

Most "scout vehicles" in the game are just something to carry scouts in. If they have better vision then so much the better doing recon but they are not any harder to detect when moving or standing still.


Don

[gila]

I think "scout vehicles" is deceiving and a misnomer they are too easily spotted and should be used as mop-up or flank guards only IMO.
Foot scouts seem to do the job well as they are intended (2 man teams are best) as long as they are stealthy.
Back to lurk mode on this subject

[Imp]

Okay on scout vehicles I have said before sometimes against a human play with a house rule for first 2 or 3 turns only your scout formations can move.
When do this or play as scouts/special forces the vehicles are mainly to get you there & for extraction if things get a bit hot. If the terrain allows they can help fill gaps in your survelance. Changes the nature of the game & sometimes allow a Mech platoon or similar to accompany them. Look at formations & see what they use.

Just like you would be mad to use helos on a map with no cover using a vehicle to watch for the enemy would be insane on the same map. You treat them just like your FOO vehicles they only take up positions where they have an exit route & that you judge reasonably safe. In woods for instance with a view of say 30+ hexes, the further the better. If you cant arrive there moving very slowly its probably not safe & normally what you do is drop the leg guys off & let them take up the position. But there may be another useful nearby location.
Cmon guys whats a scout going to do drive at speed to the top of a hill & stop or get to the hill fast & then make a cautious aproach on to it. I would assume the second as option one means hes a lucky son of a Gun or dead. Even if hes out of range steel rain is on the way.
Low visibility & a vehicle with vision aids now you can look at the situation & role the dice.

[Imp]

This is my last post on the subject as its going nowhere, the last post was to explain why some units are called scout vehicles, mainly because they are in scout formations.
What exactly do you guys want your scouts to be able to do?
Within the limited confines of the game I think they fill there role just fine, both foot & vehicle. The game tries its best to represent units in a realistic maner meaning your best bet is often to use them in the same maner. Your snipper for example tends to live a lot longer if he stays back & takes the odd important shot instead of leading the assault.

Once the invisible vehicle is perfected you can be sneaky with vehicles but guess what going fast will still get it killed in real life. Why it will throw up dust etc disturb the terrain make noise & will really only be an asset against poorly equiped armies as thermal vision or some other counter will become common.

The simple solution is not to ask to much of them & give them objectives they stand a chance of achieving. Charging headlong at an unseen enemy is not wise & quite why a scout should survive better than a regular unit is beyond me.

For those of you that want an RTS aproach I suggest editing scouts to 160+ exp.
Do remember to dumb down there weapon accuracys & or FC etc or they will be crack shots to. Dont forget to run them through the cost calculator as they will now probably be at least twice as expensive as the vanilla unit.
They do however now I think do all the things better you are after in a scout unit. Namely see hide & evade better