Trading commanders, exploit or not?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Baalz

Meh, my views are well known on this, but how about...

Exploiting archer screens?

This is sort of fundamental to how game logic currently works, and arguably just how combat works. I don't consider it an exploit.

Exploiting switching the Armor of Virtue to somebody else after the returning has stuck?

Definitely an exploit. Item effects should end when the item is removed.

Exploiting using a death bless on mages (including ritual spells)?

Uh, what? That's just how death bless works? Is it an exploit to use shrouds + N4 bless to stop diseased commanders from dying?

Exploiting sneak, attack, sneak, attack to avoid almost any retaliation?

That's how sneak works... There are plenty of forms of retaliation that still work (eg, mindhunt, earth attack).

Exploiting (potentially) blocking enemy movement by moving a large chaff force into them?

I'm not sure I can consider that an exploit. Its just part of the existing game logic and arguably WAD.

Exploiting moving a smallish force in on the magic phase to get your opponent to burn through gems before the main event in the movement phase?

Seemingly WAD. No way to really enforce since there are other reasons to send a force in the magic phase.

Exploiting globals going into effect the round they go up?

I'm not even sure what this means. Globals just work the turn they go up. You can't change that - how can you exploit it?

Exploiting sticking cursed items on suicide commanders to get the enemy to pick them up?

Agree that its an exploit.

Exploiting IRC all day to gain a big diplomatic advantage?

Lol what? Diplomatic rewards are usually commensurate with diplomatic effort - that's true whether you spend all day on IRC or sending PMs... IRC is just less annoying.

Exploiting casting spells in combat to take advantage of the deterministic order they go off in a round (reverse communions, etc.)?

Not an exploit, its interesting strategically and WAD. Consider horror mark and call horror? How else would you have it work? Predictable spell-casting order is a feature, not an exploit.

Exploiting casting ritual spells to take advantage of the semi-deterministic order they go off?

Well, its 50% top down or bottom up the unit ID list, so I'm not sure how exactly you exploit this unless you feel like wasting gems to cast something twice to ensure a third spell happens after one of them?

Exploiting pooling gems for a mutually beneficial global? Dispels?

How is this an exploit? Its a basic part of diplomacy.

Deliberately trying to make the target route in an assassination?

I imagine its WAD, especially since there's one assassin who seems to be designed to do just that. (Mujina).

Using vengeance of the dead to auto route targets after 50 turns?

This is definitely a balancing feature. Don't kill so many units with your SC pretender already =p

Donating gems/items to an ally on your defeat?

Diplomatic advantage? not an exploit.

Donating gems/items to the guy fighting your next target?

... Diplomacy? Also, payment for services rendered =)

Using scorched earth and metagaming to get a leg up in the next game?

What if you use scorched earth just to spite your killer?

Exploiting autosummoned units (maenads, slaves, etc.) to make your forts practically unstormable?

No way to control this? Your pans make them whether you want them or not... Is also a valid way to build a defense force for if/when your walls are cracked.

[Micah]

Originally Posted by Baalz

Meh, my views are well known on this, but how about...

Exploiting archer screens?
Exploiting switching the Armor of Virtue to somebody else after the returning has stuck?
Exploiting using a death bless on mages (including ritual spells)?
Exploiting sneak, attack, sneak, attack to avoid almost any retaliation?
Exploiting (potentially) blocking enemy movement by moving a large chaff force into them?
Exploiting moving a smallish force in on the magic phase to get your opponent to burn through gems before the main event in the movement phase?
Exploiting globals going into effect the round they go up?
Exploiting sticking cursed items on suicide commanders to get the enemy to pick them up?
Exploiting IRC all day to gain a big diplomatic advantage?
Exploiting casting spells in combat to take advantage of the deterministic order they go off in a round (reverse communions, etc.)?
Exploiting casting ritual spells to take advantage of the semi-deterministic order they go off?
Exploiting pooling gems for a mutually beneficial global? Dispels?
Deliberately trying to make the target route in an assassination?
Using vengeance of the dead to auto route targets after 50 turns?
Donating gems/items to an ally on your defeat?
Donating gems/items to the guy fighting your next target?
Using scorched earth and metagaming to get a leg up in the next game?
Exploiting autosummoned units (maenads, slaves, etc.) to make your forts practically unstormable?

I could go on. Seems like an exercise in both futility and likely to end in bad blood to try and dictate all the things that "gentlemen" are not supposed to do in war. If it doesn't break the game (and in fact everything discussed in this thread are examples of the quirks that make this game) I think it does far more harm than good to try and claim tactics available in the game are invalid.

No, no, no, no of course not, that's the whole POINT of stealth, yes, yes, unavoidable so no, yes, no, no, no, no, no, your number is wrong and no since that's the only real niche the spell has, no, no, depends on the type of metagame, no.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Baalz

Exploiting sneak, attack, sneak, attack to avoid almost any retaliation?
Exploiting (potentially) blocking enemy movement by moving a large chaff force into them?
Exploiting moving a smallish force in on the magic phase to get your opponent to burn through gems before the main event in the movement phase?

I agree with the rest of your list, but you consider these exploits? Err huh? Basically you don't like Pangaea that much then, do you? These are the standard tactics for Pangaea (raid with sneaky armies, block armies with maeanads, cast call of the wild before the main attack)?

If these would be considered exploits, I'd like to see someone explain how you can play with Pangaea. Using sneaky forces and maenads and remote spells *is* what Pangaea is about, at least in my opinion. Means Pangaea can recuit Minotaur commanders and Minotaurs trooper only, huh?

I am honestly quite baffled.

[Gandalf Parker]

Heehee. Great list.

Altho, admittedly that IS a list of the type of items that some people do take offense to.
I have no problem with the idea that the person who is creating the game might list any or all of those as not-allowed as long as its done clearly and publicly before people join the game so people can agree and join, or not.
Which is kindof the purpose here.

(on the other hand if someone wanted to ban them all then I would again suggest a perfectly balanced contest where exactly duplicated nations are used)

[Ink]

@ Zeldor: right if you are doing stuff like attacking your ally to suicide your mages, that's one thing, but using LAD in a battle against an opponent (even you do so with hopes of getting some undead mage-priest reanimators) is another.

@ Baalz: Could you explain the "sneak, attack, sneak, attack to avoid almost any retaliation?" exploit?

[Gandalf Parker]

One of my favorite tactics. Nations which have full armies of stealth ability (leader, infantry, archer, mage, priest, possibly mounted) doing guerilla tactics. Sneak behind front lines, take a province, sneak out, move two or three provinces before attacking again. Buy PD there, recruit units, drive taxes to 200. Force the enemy to buy heavily into PD or maintain large armies farther behind his lines than he had planned to. Particularly useful when combined with an ally who is doing the standard action such as marching a large army toward them.

[Trumanator]

If you sneak away from a province you won't be hit by any rituals or teleporting thugs except for Mind Hunt. At least that's how I've heard it.

[Trumanator]

Squirrel, I think thats exactly the point. LADing your priests is arguably WAD, as is sickle farming, etc.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think that was the point. Some of these will be considered just part of the game. And others would be considered exploits. Its all a sliding scale of how much or how little it is. Where on the scale is your "cross the line" mark?

But, for a collection of different sets of "game rules" that people can point to we would first need a list of acceptable/not items that cover the full range from gentlemans game of fun to cutthroat no-holds-barred. This is one of the most complete lists Ive seen.

Before deliberating it, can we expand on it? Does anyone have any others that have ever been "declared uncool tactics that should not be allowed"? whether you agreed or not. Just the fact that it made someone whine is enough.

[Psycho]

@Maerlande: It's not about the way you acquire the undead priests, it's about what you do with them afterwards. There's the other problem about not paying upkeep, but that's a significantly lesser issue than reanimating.

@Baazl: Nothing on that list is an exploit. Some things are examples of bad sportsmanship, but nothing else. Out of curiosity, are there actually any cursed items that you can exploit by suiciding commanders?