British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

By all means, feel free to comment.

...
There may be a return to the simple "standardised" pistol and hand grenade ALA MBT, if we can be bothered, just to save future nit-picking on the subject though.

A simple naming system of "Rifle", "SLR", "SMG" and so on (as in the WRG tabletop rule sets) would have been best.

Personally, I think switching to generic infantry weapons would be a shame. I like to see nationalised weapons in the infantry sections.

But it's your ball, your rules...


Cross

[Pibwl]

There's no 37mm Bofors AT-gun, which was used in North Africa. I have no precise info, when their usage started, but they were imported from Poland well before the war (BTW, the Polish soldiers were surprised to receive Polish guns at Tobruk).

059 2 Pdr AT-Gun - according to 'Anti-tank weapons WW2 Fact Files' by Chamberlain/Gander it entered service in 1938

216 25mm Portee, 591 2 Pdr Portee - have a photo of bigger 6pdr portee. Correct for 2pdr is 12536

218 6 Pdr Portee - has a photo of 2pdr - correct is 12532

Also, nice photo of 3in mortar is 601

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

There's no 37mm Bofors AT-gun, which was used in North Africa. I have no precise info, when their usage started, but they were imported from Poland well before the war (BTW, the Polish soldiers were surprised to receive Polish guns at Tobruk).

What's Weapon 15 - 37mm MkI Bofors then ?

..........were used mainly by 3rd RHA and 106th RHA (Lancashire Hussars) within 7th Armoured Division........and it was often carried "portee" on the back of a vehicle, although a separate limber was provided and had a crew of 5.

shortly before the start of the war the Sudanese Government bought a number of 37mm Anti-Tank guns from AB Bofors of Sweden and when war broke out, these were made available to the British Army in the Western Desert

We use it with unit 252 " LRDG Chevy ATG" which represents it's typical application. If it was used by the Poles as an AT gun in the desert then it needs to be in the Polish OOB for that time period.

What we missed with unit 252 is that the 37mm could fire HE and YES I have aleady made a note to fix the Icon used for that unit


Don

[Pibwl]

I meant a towed version which was also surely used (even portee gun was probably sometimes dismounted and put on a ground position). The quoted text says, that they were "often" used as portee, so not exclusively. But, of course, as you wish.

[Pibwl]

514 Insect class - secondary armament were 76 mm AA guns, not 2 pdr (according to Conway's and others).
Better icon IMO would be 707 - it looked like this from a top: http://warships.ru/MK-3/MK-23/efis.jpg

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

373 Beaverette III - appeared "in 1941" (AFV Weapons Profile 30) (now 1/43).
Standard armament was Bren in a turret, not Vickers K(2).

Standard......maybe........ but that's a Beaverette III and those are twin Vickers K's

For the mark III, a turret was added to the top of an enclosed cabin. There were two types of turret:

• an enclosed turret, which must have made the operation of the Bren machine gun, through a narrow slot, very difficult, if not impossible. to fire.
• an open turret, when a larger twin Vickers machine gun was fitted, so the gunner was exposed, but with more freedom to manouvre.

[Pibwl]

My source (Magnuski's "Polish army vehicles") treated Bren-armed one as a standard, and twin Vickers one among experimantal ones. I can't find other reliable sources on the subject. My educated guess is, that Vickers-armed variant could have been used in some number by RAF for airfield protection. So, we might keep Vickers-armed variant or supplement it with Bren-armed. They probably never entered combat anyway...

211 AEC Mk I - ...
They first appeared on African theatre in 1942 (now 10/41)

David Fletcher wrote in "The great tank scandal", that due to shortages of turrets "it was thus well into 1942 before they began to appear with service units in North Africa".

I don't insist, but maybe you'd consider adding some improvised armoured Home Guard lorries like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_...armoured_lorry or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armadi...ghting_vehicle ?

[Pibwl]

Excuse me Don for being THAT late, but you surprised all of us So please, don't shoot. I had some notes on the British OOB almost ready, so maybe I'll write them down. Don't feel obliged to rework the files now, only if you'd notice such need. Main things are, that Bren carriers and 2pdr guns appear much too early, and Humber LRC III lacks an icon. I'm listing also minor things, since I had them ready - maybe for the future use...


001 Lt Tank Mk.III - photo 630 is actually Mk II - Mk III was the first model with new suspension (known from Bren Carrier). I'll attach a photo, or here is one very nice: http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww...MkI-II-III.php

From AFV Weapons Profile 05 - "Light Tanks I-V" it seems that they had radio as a standard (though not very good No.1 set)

There could be also added Lt tank Mk V - basing upon 596 LT Mk VIb, but appearing already in 1934 (12 prototypes sent to the 1st Light Battalion Royal Tank Corps for testing). Armour was 12mm, but it was sloped on a front hull plate, so it might be 2, the rest should be 1. Speed was 32 mph (17). Sadly, AFV Weapons Profile 05 doesn't bother with such details, like detailed dates of entering service. A picture might be of Mk.VIb, or here is one, at the bottom of page: http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww..._light_MkV.php

003 LT Mk VIc - radio was a standard (better No 7 set). Same for 596 LT Mk VIb


059 2 Pdr AT-Gun - sure it was not available before mid-1936 (now 1/35). Osprey New Vanguard 098 - "British Anti-tank Artillery 1939-45" implies, that only in 12/35 a gunbed was chosen for production, and says, that the 2-pdr gun "became a part of the Royal Artillery in 1938, when five field brigades were converted to anti-tank regiments". Older "Anti-tank weapons WW2 Fact Files" by Chamberlain/Gander also says, that it entered service in 1938.
Formations should be corrected accordingly.
Same for unit 594

-------------

Carriers:

I'm basing mainly on Osprey New Vanguard 110 "Universal Carrier 1936-48 - The 'Bren Gun Carrier' Story" by David Fletcher, and older AFV Profile No.14 - Carriers.

The first small batch of 13 Carrier, Machine Gun No.1 Mark I appeared only in mid-1936, but they were made of mild steel, according to AFV Profile No14.
Mass production of MG Carrier No.2 Mark I started in 1937 only. However, they had Vickers HMG (in a bow), and a place only for 3 men (and they differed in appearance from later Universal carriers, having a single crew compartment at the rear on the left side, with slanted back).
Only from late 1937 they were adapted to carry Bren (AFV Profle says late 1938, but Fletcher seems more reliable). Their purpose was only to carry Bren section and support an infantry battalion. Initially they were used in 10-vehicle platoon of Btn HQ (in 3-vehicle sections). One vehicle in a section was supposed to carry Boys. Later a number of sections grew to 4.

The second main early carrier was Scout Carrier, with a crew of 4 (introduced around 1939). They were supposed to be armed with Boys and Bren as a standard and be used in recce units. At least 1/3 had radios. A structure of a recce battalions of infantry divisions changed several times, but carriers were invariably used in troops of three (only in case of airborne division, scout troops consisted of two carriers and two jeeps).
According to AFV Profile 14, early Bren carriers had armoured only left side, Scout Carriers - right side.

Only in late 1939 there started production of final Universal Carriers, which had some place at the rear for extra troops (first contracts on 1 April 1939). Unfortunately, an arrangement of seats in a rear compartment is not clear, but all these books say, that the carrier could officially accomodate only a crew of 4 including the driver. Possibly there were 5 seats in total.

From 1943 carriers started to be fitted with 2 in mortar with 30 rounds, also able to lay smoke, or with SD.

Passing on to units:

110 Carrier AOP - appeared only in a course of 1939 (now 1/35) and had no MG in a front plate, and probably no MG at all (publications don't tell specifically, if they had no AAMG, but Brens were in a short supply at early stages of war, and I don't think they were given to AOP vehicles). According to AFV Profile, they appeared after 9/39.

132 Carrier HMG - apparently they didn't carry Brens in addition to their HMGs (and they didn't need to) - photos don't show them with Brens, neither sources mention Brens describing them. Precisely, they were designated MMG Carrier

We have four basic Bren Carriers: 133 [APC halftrack], 289 [APC], 453 [Gun APC tracked], 550 [scout vehicle] - available too early (1/35):

Class 24 APC (halftrack):

Might represent Scout Carriers and later Universals used as scouts.

133 Bren Carrier - Available 01/035 to 12/046
284 Boys Carrier - Available 01/039 to 12/042 *has X3 Radio Code

I suggest to make 284 Boys carrier a basic unit to choose in the first period - it was a standard armament of Scout Carrier. Unit 133 Bren Carrier should be an alternative unit in the first period and basic unit after withdrawing of Boys. At least 1/3 of these vehicles had radio.
There is no clear information, when Scout Carriers entered service (in a course of 1939), but it should be a starting date of these units and formations.

There might be added another Bren Carrier with 2in mortar from 1943.

Formations using class 24:
045 Carrier Section.
There is some problem of doubled Boys rifles in this formation: carried as AT teams and being an armament of vehicles. Also, we probably load too much men onto vehicles with an official crew of 4. Maybe we should just get rid of Boys teams from this formation in an initial period, and create a second entry with Piats after their introduction?... Or give one AT team and two Mech supports?

072 and 111 Scout Car Sec/Troop both should be replaced with a section or troop of 3 carriers (D. Fletcher uses both names section or troop in different periods). Besides, it should be named rather Carrier then Scout Car.
Formation 72 is used in 97 Armour Car Sqdn, I don't know how about 111

Same for 367 Carrier Patrol, which should have 3 carriers. Military Training Pamphplet No.41 insists, that a section (of 3 vehicles) must not be split up.
However, this formation might be redundant since we have formation 45.

For the reasons given above, formation 370 of 2 Carriers seems unseen in practice.

Form. 93 TD Battery, 162 TD Regiment - a carrier is used as a commanding vehicle. It might remain there (although I don't know if they used a carrier, or maybe some armoured car) or replaced with some MG-only armed, or even unarmed.


Class 252: APC

289 Bren Carrier [APC] - used only to carry 3in mortars in the game - could be named Mortar Carrier. 3in mortars on carriers were introduced from 1942. Photos don't show mortar carriers with Brens and it's rather doubtful, if it carried one, for it was not meant to direct combat.

There is a corresponding formation 118 Mortar Sec[2]/M and mortars 725-726. A carrier carried 66 rounds of mortar ammo (including smoke), so it might be increased in mortars.
According to Magnuski, a section consisted of 3 mortars with carriers (there were platoons of 6 mortars and a command carrier). Fletcher only wrote, that a platoon consisted of six detachments.
Class might be changed eg. to "light SPM", so APC class could be used for something else.


Class 127: Gun APC (tracked)

453 Bren Carrier - there rather weren't carriers armed with two Brens, maybe except for non-standard vehicles in North Africa. They are also not seen on photos. It seems, that Bren wasn't a standard armament of the vehicle, but rather of the carried section.
I suggest to leave only MG in a slot 1, and make it a standard Bren Carrier used for infantry support.

456 - PIAT Carrier - PIATs rather weren't used as vehicle armament - according to D. Fletcher, trials showed, that it was impossible to keep the projectile in place during a rough ride, and the PIAT had an effective range of 100m, so "the chances of an enemy tank permitting a carrier to get that close are too slim to be worrying about"

There should be added also MG Carrier with bow-mounted Vickers (#137 Vickers T/CMG?) as the first unit, available around 1/37-12/39. (BTW: there's no reason, I believe, for tankettes, to have BMG with range of 10, much worse, then infantry HMG of the same model)

Bren-armed Carrier should start not earlier, than around 11/37. From 1943 there could be a carrier with 2in mortar. All these carriers had a crew of 3 and as a rule did not carry other men (and before Universal Carrier, weren't able to)

Formations:
329 Mechanised FO - date to be adjusted

330 Mech Patrol - non-existent formation of 4 carriers.

332 Motor Coy 43 - no changes needed

345 Motor MG Pl 43 - has 4 Vickers HMGs and 4 carriers #453, with two Brens each. In fact, these carriers were #132 MMG Carriers, but I guess it is impossible to model a MMG, that disappears as a vehicle armament when dismounted... So we should live with it? Anyway, as it was mentioned in unit 132, they didn't carry Brens.

I suggest also to make a standard section of one class 24 Boys carrier and two class 127 carriers, through all lifespan of Boys.


class 32 Scout vehicle
550 Bren carrier - I think it should be removed, so that it won't replace wheeled scout cars in formations, which is probably inaccurate. Might be changed to general use unarmed carrier of other class.

There will be a gap in formation 97 Armour Car Sqdn between an ending date of 865 Carden Loyd VI (12/34) and starting date of Dingo (11/39), but it would be anyway, since the carrier shouldn't be available before 1937. A carrier is a single Scout vehicle there (there are carriers of other class in 072 subformations). The simplest is to make this squadron available from 11/39. Besides, I suspect that mixed AC/carrier Sqdn is a later-war recce unit, but it would demand further research (under a Reconnaissance Corps, from 1941, a scout platoon of divisional Recce Bttn consisted of a section with 5 LRC and two sections with 3 carriers each). In BEF period, carriers were used along with light tanks in recce units, not with armoured cars.


BTW: 865 Carden Loyd VI deserves some other formations, since its only use is the mentioned single entry in Armour Car Sqdn, while it was very widespread vehicle in early 1930s, "used as light tanks, as recce vehicle, as machine gun carrier and as tractors" (according to Armour in profile no.16 - Carden Loyd Mk.VI). Sadly, no details are given as for their tactical usage in the British Army.


That's all for carriers as for now. There is also 399 Ammo Carrier, which also starts too early, but I don't know, if armoured carriers were used as ammo carriers at all.

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293 Limber - a better photo of a limber might be 23142, showing a limber with horses, instead of some antique piece with a limber (for other countries as well)

362 Humber LRC III - should have icon 3254 (the first is non-existent)

380 Humber Scout I - was produced from early 1943 only (now 6/41) [by Polish J. Magnuski and a Czech monograph book on Humber Scout car]

381 Humber Scout II - produced from 1944 only according to these sources (now 6/43).

582 Colonial 4.5" H has no winter icon

603 Rolls-Royce AC - turret was open from a top

607-610 M-H II 2pdr etc - gun conversions were open-topped and they should use a picture 21118


I couldn't help from attaching a proposed picture of (hard to find) Norwegian Fokker C.V - current units 51,53 in Norwegian OOB have a photo with clear Dutch markings.
I'm also attaching alternative in flight photo pm20580 of Norwegian Hover MF11 floatplane.

[DRG]

None of this is getting in. Get serious. You had a year to post this and waited until I announce the patch....... IMAGINE how little "impressed" I am at this moment.... then double it. There were plenty of hints dropped we were finishing up and from what I can see a number if these issues have already been dealt with.. you DID notice how many photos I added to the game didn't you ?

The work is locked down. The only reason its not released now is we are triple checking things but that's things already in the game NOT anything new dropped in our laps after a years work was done and I really... REALLY don't give a crap if some "new source" puts our introduction dates in the mid 30's for something that hardly anyone bothers with is now out by a few months

[Pibwl]

Minor things, for 2021 release. I'm just reading "Tempest in Action", and there is some information about Typhoons.

729 Typhoon IA - bombs were adapted in late 1942 only (now 9/41). Early Typhoons were mostly used as interceptors or strafers. It says, that "ater extensive trials, the Typhoon was finally cleared to carry two 500 pound bombs under the wings and by September of 1942, Nos 181 and 182 Squadrons became he first to equip with what were sometimes known as Bombphons". But it would be Typhoon IB rather, with 20 mm cannons (icon 8307).
For bomb armed Typhoon, there is photo 8368.

Possibly it's better to make IA strafer a separate unit, so that removing of bombs from 729 unit doesn't interfere with scenarios.

183 Typhoon IB - 1000lb bombs were used operationally from early 1944 only (trials were begun in 4/43, and "it was a year later, however, before Typhoons used 1000 pound bombs in action").
It could rather use an icon with stripes, especially, that it uses early earth/green scheme.

95 Typhoon IB - photo 2354 has invasion stripes, while this is pre-6/44 unit, while 731 Typhoon IB is post-6/44 unit and has photo 850 without stripes - they might be swapped for a cake of consistency with icons.