Polish OOB

[SaS TrooP]

I am getting this from a book "Samodzielna Brygada Strzelców Karpackich", published by Mireki, various authors, great majority being veterans of that unit (it is released in 2014, but work origins from 1951, not sure what release number is that).

Witold Ptasznik writes the story of AT battalion of that unit
Two interesting quotes happen:
"By SBSK order of 16th June 1941, an AT battalion was organized (...) It had 12 officers and 160 men. Its main equipment were french 25mm Hotchkiss guns and 37mm Puteaux guns" - I wonder if he actually means old SA18 or newer variants of those. Regardless, by June 1941 25mm AT guns are still mentioned in organization.
Interestingly, presence of these guns is not mentioned in Tobruk. Unit equipment is simply described as "various", 37mm Bofors are also mentioned several times, what indicates "our" guns. I wonder where do these come from since book is silent on that matter.

And then, about that Bofors:
"On 11th December 1941, unit was sent back to Tobruk. On 12th December 1941, battalion gave up all 37mm polish (this word used) guns to the British and received in exchange 10 2 pounder AT artillery pieces" - So 37mm Bofors should be in use till 12/1941 if anyone wondered.

As far as remember there were no other polish units active in combat by that date (except Uhlan Regiment which was fully armoured), so these weapons could not serve in other formations.

[Pibwl]

I have my books in a mess right now (I have moved), but the information on giving away 25mm guns to the British in late 1940 was IIRC from "Bojowe szlaki pustynne". The brigade must have been supplied with other (or maybe even the same) guns in a training period in early 1941. As a result, a lifespan of 25mm guns could be extended to 7/41.

In Tobruk there were no 25mm guns, because the Brigade was moved by the sea without heavy equipment, and got Bofors (and Italian) AT guns there. There was an interesting book "Od Kocka do Źródła Gazeli" by Mieczysław Pruszyński, who was a commander of one motorized AT platoon.

Later the brigade used eg. 5cm Pak-38, but it was probably during later reorganization period.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP

Interestingly, presence of these guns is not mentioned in Tobruk. Unit equipment is simply described as "various", 37mm Bofors are also mentioned several times, what indicates "our" guns. I wonder where do these come from since book is silent on that matter.

To clear up the matter: the Brigade received Bofors guns in Tobruk, and they appeared to come from a small batch manufactured in Poland and sold to the British before the war. They even had Polish inscriptions and tires.

[Warnevada]

It appears there is an error in the Polish Armor section. There are two entries, SP-AT Platoon and SP-AT Battery. The weapon, confirmed by the photo, is an AA rather than an AT gun carrying only HE ammo.

I think the unit titles should be changed to SP-AA.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Warnevada

It appears there is an error in the Polish Armor section. There are two entries, SP-AT Platoon and SP-AT Battery. The weapon, confirmed by the photo, is an AA rather than an AT gun carrying only HE ammo.

I think the unit titles should be changed to SP-AA.

Nope, that's intentional

Don

[Griefbringer]

Some observations I made from the Polish OOB:

1.) Weapon 23 (47mm Vickers) has HE kill 3 (other 47 mm guns tend to have HE kill of 2).

2.) Weapon 119 (47mm wz.25) has HE penetration of 0 (other 47 mm guns tend to have HE pen of 1).

3.) Unit 7 (75mm De Dion) has carry capacity of 103, which seems quite generous considering that this vehicle already mounts a 75 mm AA-gun and a crew of six.

[Griefbringer]

And some other odd observations I also did:

4.) Unit 469 (7.92 wz.08 AAMG) has unit class "Flak". I would expect it to rather be "Infantry AA MG".

5.) Unit 410 (75 mm Inf-Gun) is armed with 75mm wzos/26 FG, and has speed 1. Unit 412 (75 mm Field Gun) is armed with the same weapon, but has speed 0. This is inconsistent, even though these two have different unit classes
(410 is "Infantry Support Gun" while 412 is "Howitzer").

6.) Formations 408 (Armoured Batt) and 409 (Armoured Batt+) contain a rather clumsy armoured car squadron (formation 407). Perhaps this could be replaced, in the name of tactical flexibility, with two armoured car platoons (formation 393) and motorcycle (formation 415) and one more armoured car (unit 577) added to the company HQ.

7.) Unit 499 (Asslt Pioneers), available from 1/30 until 6/40, has Mills Bombs in second weapon slot. Maybe it would make more sense to give them Polish grenades instead?

8.) Formation 120 (Marine Supt Co) is classified as being Company formation type, but is not subdivided into platoons. I would suggest splitting it into company HQ, three MG platoons (formation 85) and one mortar section (formation 312).

9.) Formation 315 (MG Company) tends to have a lot of units also bundled to the company HQ. I would leave the single rifle squad as the company HQ, and split off into sub-formation the three MG units (formation 85), as well as the observer (formation 279).

10.) Formation 424 (Bicycle Co) and 425 (Bicycle Co+) have MG unit as company HQ. I have no idea about how these units were historically organised, but in game such HQ would have serious difficulty in keeping up with bicycle infantry on road march (speed 4 vs. 9). Should there maybe be some sort of transport available for this MG?

11.) Formation 327 (Light AA Pl) has two medium trucks in the formation HQ, while the two sub-formations have artillery prime movers for transportation.

[Griefbringer]

And since the edit option seems to be having a day off, I would like to point out that the "75mm wzos/26 FG" under item 5 was actually supposed to read "75mm wz02/26 FG".

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Griefbringer

Some observations I made from the Polish OOB:

1.) Weapon 23 (47mm Vickers) has HE kill 3 (other 47 mm guns tend to have HE kill of 2).

2.) Weapon 119 (47mm wz.25) has HE penetration of 0 (other 47 mm guns tend to have HE pen of 1).

3.) Unit 7 (75mm De Dion) has carry capacity of 103, which seems quite generous considering that this vehicle already mounts a 75 mm AA-gun and a crew of six.

Right. And these 47mm guns in Bulgaria and Thailand have kill 2.

[blazejos]

In polish OOB as SP-AT vehicle is used De Dion-Bouton mod. 1913 Polish army used them since early 1920. In 1936 was found that equipment was in pour condition especially cars so were rebuild with use of PF621L car chassis. First such vehicles were available since August 1936. But not all vehicles were rebuild so in 1939 were used both versions PF621L wz.18/24 and also unmodernised De Dion wz.18/24. My proposition is to add proper photos and add this gun after modernisation with PF621 chassis which has better mobility pressure tyres instead of rubber massive. Gun was left the same and has no better characteristic in AT fire than on De Dion vehicle.

Aviaarmor summary of vehicle in polish and french army
https://translate.google.pl/translat...-text=&act=url

Polish De Dion vehicles
https://audiovis.nac.gov.pl/obraz/115877:1/
https://translate.google.pl/translat...ton-wz-1824%2F

Polish modernised variant on PF621 chassis
https://translate.google.pl/translat...ezne-pf621l%2F

Is possible to add this vehicles to French OOB also because they used them in 1940. French vehicles were the same as Polish De Dion-Buton M1913 and fought in WWI. Were modernised in 1934 to improve AT characteristic new optics and stability stands of the guns but not chassis so were still antic 1913 de Dion. Proposition is to add in french OOB also such vehicles and after 1934 modernised variant with slightly better AT parameters but still poor mobility. Is likely that instead like Polish French rebuild all of their vehicles in 1934 because whole production was only 120 vehicles at all.

Photo of modernised 1934 French variant
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ire_-_1919.jpg

Photo of this vehicle destroyed in 1940
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...58847&start=30