Czechoslovak OOB37 and Slovak OOB01

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP

I some sort of inconsistency here.

At one point you intentionally add PHK Corps for "what if" scenarios, just to make them accessible for what if scenarios, even if 1945+ CSLA scenario is highly unlikely - and yu make all your work to do that even if people can buy UK units in captured mode.

Then you literally refuse to add 1-2 additional companies of infantry on the very same basis and shift availability to 8/44 to make them historically accessible - by argumenting that you can buy units in captured mode.

Maybe I get into your way, I do scenarios - not TOEs. But for the love of God, if it is few minutes work and adds significant amount of units to one of the nations - why not? Won't that make the game better?

Personally I'm of the opinion that such units shouldn't have been added in the first place, primarily because if you wanted to be consistent then the list would be absolutely enormous.

For example, if the Czechoslovak troops are added, then one could also make a case for adding additional units and formations for all the Axis minor nation troops that participated as part of the Wehrmacht in the invasion of the USSR, all the non-German Waffen-SS units, tiny partisan factions, obscure pro-Axis police units...

That would be a huge amount of work, but only a handful of players would ever use those units. On the other hand, if the designers put their time in improving other aspects of the game, it would be appreciated by a far greater number of people.

[Pibwl]

I agree. That's why I didn't propose to add CS units in Great Britain in a very beginning of this thread.
More useful could be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_National_Uprising units, demanding basically extending several Slovak units and formations until 10/44 - but I don't dare to propose it

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It's no secret, that my primary interest are color pictures, and in this purpose I use Mobhack. In most cases I don't check unit by unit, only something that catches my eye, and raises doubts. Sometimes if I find inaccuracies, I catch up and check other similar units and search info. Sometimes the other way - first I read a book, and then wonder, how the units are depicted in SPWW2. If there exist recent detailed sources, especially written by authors coming from these countries, I'm sometimes too eager to share a newly acquired knowledge You do what you want with that info.

And I don't want to create own OOBs, because they would differ only in tens of small adjustments, a handful of new units, and - first of all - maybe a dozen people would ever be interested in them... I passed through a stage of creating own OOBs over 15-20 years ago, when I created a corrected SP-I set (...was it THAT long ago?...). Now I'm only wasting time for creating pictures - and sometimes I spot something, that is IMO worth to correct.

Some people improve game mechanism (which IMO is quite adequate now ), some build maps, some create scenarios, I am accuracy aficionado. And I agree, that most of these changes have no impact on the game, but - at least me - I like to see correct details, like gun or truck icons in a battle - if we don't have a limited symbolic SP-I icon set any more, but already have a lot of them available, and it's enough to choose the best one. You have the man, who does half of the job, instead of just complaining "this truck doesn't resemble what it should" (I know, that you'd just ignore it). Now you can choose if to ignore, or to follow the suggestion of improvement.

[Imp]

It's no secret, that my primary interest are color pictures,

So why not stick mainly to them instead of producing huge lists?
Quick to look at & action.

And I don't want to create own OOBs, because they would differ only in tens of small adjustments, a handful of new units, and - first of all - maybe a dozen people would ever be interested in them..

By your own admition now all these changes you submit are of little interest to most players. Time to check & action should therefore probably be spent on things that appeal to a larger base of users.

As I said why not submit your top 50 unit changes for the year rather than huge lists.
I am sure some of your corrections would be good but they don't get actioned because they get missed or ignored due to the volume of data you create.

Does this not make sense to you, submit the important stuff only & it might get in rather than most of your work going to waste.
You produce to big a workload at present so are just making lists for your enjoyment.

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP

Then you literally refuse to add 1-2 additional companies of infantry on the very same basis and shift availability to 8/44 to make them historically accessible - by argumenting that you can buy units in captured mode.

Maybe I get into your way, I do scenarios - not TOEs. But for the love of God, if it is few minutes work and adds significant amount of units to one of the nations - why not?

Considering the way the OOBs are organised, it is not that trivial to just copy and paste formations from one OOB to another. You will need to add the weapons, then you will need to add the units (using unit classes that are not used for other purposes in that timeframe to avoid mix-ups) and then the formations. Trying to simply copy-paste everything from OOB to another may lead to issues due to the weapon/unit/formation slots being already utilised for other purposes.

Then there is also the issue of maintenability - the more you repeat weapons and units across OOBs, the harder it is to maintain consistency when changes are made to data. Issue probably not helped by the fact that the same weapon or vehicle can exist under different names in different OOBs - though this adds to the historical flavour of the game.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Imp

So why not stick mainly to them instead of producing huge lists?

Because, as a perfectionist, when I see an error or something, than can be easily improved (icon, name etc), I can't ignore it. I feel, that my duty is to report it, and it's up to Camo staff, what to do with this knowledge. I agree, that sometimes my remarks may be trivial or annoying - sorry... If I made own OOBs, I'd just simply improve it myself, but as I wrote, it doesn't make any sense. I'm ignoring things, that need more effort, when it isn't worth it, anyway. And yes, I apparently do it for enjoyment - or rather it's an addiction...

[Pibwl]

Anyway, back to the main subject. This year I managed to investigate mainly Czechoslovak artillery (which has been omitted somehow), thanks to a reliably-looking Czech page http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191.../aktualne.html
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AT guns:

79 37mm KPUV vz 30 - it should be vz.34 in fact, and according to http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...puv-vz.34.html they were delivered only in a course of 1935 (now 1930). There were no earlier AT guns adopted and their units became first special AT units of CS Army.
Current photo is vz.37 gun, with a very different shield - photos of vz.34 are here: http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...be/kpuv-vz_34/

If we need to have AT gun before that date, than maybe there should be added 75mm vz.15 mountain gun as a stop-gap measure? According to http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...y-kanon-vz.15/ their crews trained AT shooting. (Není bez zajímavosti, že cvičební řád pro horské kanony vz.15 pamatoval i na boj s tanky a obsluhy ho intenzivně nacvičovaly.). It may be copied from Romanian unit 035 or Hungarian unit 035.

This gun could be added as mountain artillery as well.


81 37mm KPUV vz 37 - icon should differ from vz.34 gun - best seems 8008 (a flat shield covered wheels, picture: http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig48/10481102p.jpg )
According to http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...uv--vz.37.html, first guns were made in 12/37 (now 1/37).

82 47mm KPUV vz 38 - according to http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...puv-vz.38.html , no guns were delivered to CS Army before German invasion - deliveries were scheduled on second half of 1939 only (První série kanonů však mohla být dodána až v druhé polovině roku 1939 a přebírali je již okupanti. )
Maybe it should be added eg. as a heavy AT gun, with prototype status?

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Field artillery:


90 76mm Field Gun (vz.30) - range 208 is much too big - according to Chamberlain/Gardner "Light and Medium Field Artillery" it was 13.5 km, http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...non-vz_30.html gives 13.2 km.
BTW: original calibre designation according to that page was 8cm.

It's a detail, but icon 2116 has much too thick barrel for 76mm - best seems 2169, with its split trail and bigger shield.

91 100mm Howitzer (vz.30) - range 206 is too big. Despite Chamberlain/Gardner credit it with 16.000 km, but with barrel length L/25 it is rather impossible. On the other hand, book "Slovenska armada 1939-1945" by Kliment/Nakladal credit it with 10.600 m, the same http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...ice-vz.30.html (there might have been a simple typo in Western sources).

Icon has much too long barrel, best seems 2170 (which BTW uses the same gun bed, as proposed for 76cm vz.30 gun, how was in fact - the two guns were related)

The same remarks as for range and icon apply for Romanian unit 138

The same remarks for Yugoslavian unit 135 100mm Howitzer - it was similar earlier export vz.28 howitzer, but even Chamberlain/Gardner this time credit it with 10.700 m (now: 207). An icon is wrong twin-trail.


174 149mm Battery (vz.15/16 gun) - weapon's name and photo indicates 15cm vz.15/16 heavy cannon, but its caliber was 152 mm and it had an extremely long range of 20.5km (now: 205): http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...anon-vz-15_16/
However, it was very rare piece of the heaviest artillery (only 11 used: http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...zari-1938.html), so it could be replaced with more typical 15cm howitzer - or supplemented with it.

There were two models of 149mm off-map howitzers:
- common 149 mm vz.25 howitzer of heavy artillery (340 pieces, range 11.8km) http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...ice-vz.25.html (photos: http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...oufnice-vz-25/)
- or rare 149 mm vz.15 howitzer of the heaviest artillery units (48 pieces, range 12.6km)
http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...ice-vz.15.html
more photos: http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...oufnice-vz_15/

I suggest to add vz.25 howitzer, especially, that it was also used by Slovakia.

For a long-ranger artillery, rare 15cm vz.15/16 cannon could be replaced with more common 105mm gun vz.35 - 18 km (http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...non-vz.35.html), twin-trail icon - best 2125, ready photo 2243.
They were also used by Slovakia.


175 220mm Battery - according to Polish books on 220mm Skoda mortar, CS army didn't eventually buy vz.28 mortars, and this junk was only produced for export. Also, they are not mentioned in Czech inventory http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...zari-1938.html
According to the inventory and the page http://www.delostrelectvocsarmady191...elostrelectvo/ there were used instead 30.5cm vz.16 mortars (12.3km) and 21cm vz.18 mortars (10.6km)

305mm mortar could be copied from Yugoslavian unit #98.


179 122mm Battery (Soviet origin) - a detail, but a weapon's name should be M-30 or vz.38 FH (Soviet obr.38), not vz.31.

182 76mm Battery - Soviet origin. The weapon has much too big range 208 - Soviet one has 203 (correct). However, definitely more probable weapon is ZiS-3 obr.42 (vz.42), not vz.39 (the same performance). Photo is some unidentified gun, but definitely not Soviet 76mm (leFh18?) - it's better to change it to ZiS-3 eg. 14139.

183 152mm Battery (Soviet origin) - apparently the weapon should be Soviet standard late-war D-1 obr.43 (vz.43) howitzer, as the photo indicates, not vz.10.
Range 208 is much too big - the Soviet one has 202 (12.4km).

185 76mm Howitzer (vz.30) - most probably it should be Soviet-origin 76mm field gun in that period (first of all, obr.42 ZiS-3). Surely the Czechoslovak army in the USSR had no access to CS prewar guns in 11/43.

186 122mm Howitzer - as I wrote for Soviet OOB, better icon is 2167, with correct proportions - current has too long barrel (it was only L/15).

So much for the artillery.

[Pibwl]

Misc simple:

50 OA vz 27 - first date 4/39 is an error (later than the second one) - it should be 1/30, and 072 formation should be modified accordingly.
Desert icon is a different car, should be 4022 or rather basic grey 4023 (they weren't supposed to operate on any desert anyway)
Drive type should be wheel only - they used an over-sophisticated 4x4 drive, in which only one axle was driven at a time, depending on a direction... (Charles K. Kliment, Vladimir Francev: "Czechoslovak armored fighting vehicles 1918-1948")

66 Praga RV - Polish OOb uses icon 138, which seems to fit better (upper view http://panzergarage.com/WebRoot/Stor...ga_RV._atr.png)

137 Skoda 903 - according to this Czech magazine http://www.jan-tucek.wz.cz/clanky_od...mobil_9_15.pdf Skoda 903 6x4 car wasn't in fact produced for CS army. Only 2 prototypes were built before the war, and only a small batch of 42 vehicles was produced in 1941 for Germans (intended for Yugoslavia).

It could be removed or better changed to generic Tatra staff car, representing a family of most typical 6x4 staff cars in CS army (T26/30 used from 1930, then T72 and T82). Photo might be 8904, although it is later wartime model T93 for Romania.
(photos of T72 https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DQJiDffDOtE/maxresdefault.jpg, T82: http://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/t/ta...rototype_1.jpg, https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8001/7...06ba294f_c.jpg )

They can be AT-wheel vehicles - in Czechoslovak army they were treated so, and their 6x4 drive gave them improved off-road characteristics.

Same for Slovak unit 137

138 Tatra Truck - same as above with AT-drive. They were in fact truck versions of same 6x4 vehicles. Better icon IMO is 3179 or 2138 to mark their smaller size, similar to cars.

Same for units 13 and 142 and Slovak units 13, 138, 142.

139 Praga AV - photo is Tatra T93, correct is eg. 23170. Same remarks as above as for AT-drive.

Same for Slovak unit 139

143 1&1/2 Ton Truck - standard vehicle in Soviet-organized armies was 3/4t Dodge (photo eg. 20685 or 19037), 1&1/2t Dodge was rather an exception.

155, 169 Avia B.71 - photo is German, correct is 2256


170 Tupolev G-2 - improbable as paratroop transport in late war period - should be just Lisunov Li-2 (#220 in Soviet OOB)

255 Tancik vz.33 - Delivered only in 2/34 (6/33) (as unit 008) - needs change of formation 103 Police Tank Pl (actually, they weren't used as police tanks, but in ordinary armoured regiments, and later border units)

There was one funny armoured car worth to add: PA-II Zelva (turtle) http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww...A-II_Zelva.php (according to Kliment's book, a designation OA vz.23 was only a planned one).
Unit 050 OA vz 27 (PA-III) can serve as a direct pattern, an icon 3255 of Humber scout car would be almost ideal (albeit green), and there is even a photo 9316.
According to Charles K. Kliment, Vladimir Francev: "Czechoslovak armored fighting vehicles 1918-1948", it could develop a high speed 70 km/h on road. Drive type should be wheel only as well. Used from 1/30 until 1937, when they were sold to the police (there could be the second entry, for formation 103 Police Tank Pl).

Of course, no more than 2 of its 4 MGs could fire at one target.

That's probably all regarding Czechoslovakia.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

There was one funny armoured car worth to add: PA-II Zelva (turtle) http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww...A-II_Zelva.php (according to Kliment's book, a designation OA vz.23 was only a planned one).
Unit 050 OA vz 27 (PA-III) can serve as a direct pattern, an icon 3255 of Humber scout car would be almost ideal (albeit green), and there is even a photo 9316.
According to Charles K. Kliment, Vladimir Francev: "Czechoslovak armored fighting vehicles 1918-1948", it could develop a high speed 70 km/h on road. Drive type should be wheel only as well. Used from 1/30 until 1937, when they were sold to the police (there could be the second entry, for formation 103 Police Tank Pl).

Of course, no more than 2 of its 4 MGs could fire at one target.

To be precise, according to all sources it was armed with 7.92mm Maxim MG08 (vz.08) TMGs. Weapon could have the same specifications as #211 7.92mm vz24 TMG (or weapon 207 in Polish OOB 7.92wz.08/15TMG could be copied with changed name).

BTW: I've just noticed, that weapon 211 7.92mm vz24 TMG has possibly too much range 30, while TMG/CMGs of this caliber usually have 24. Same for Slovakia,

According to Czech article in HPM 10/1994, PA-II were withdrawn from the army by 10/36, then from 11/37 until 1939 used by the police.

One more thing: size 4 of 050 OA vz.27 (as well as PA-II) is too big - they were of similar same size as AEC AC, SdKfz-231 or ADGZ (BTW: unit 842 in German OOB Steyr ADGZ has size 2, which is definitely too small). Same for Slovak unit 050.

On the other hand, 051 OA vz 30 (size 3), in spite of its 6x4 drive, was a very compact car - 4.02m long and 2.02m high, which was similar or even less, than size 2 cars, like SdKfz-222, BA-20, FA-I or Polish wz.34.
The same for Slovak unit 51, Romanian unit 323, Hungarian unit 320.
(BTW, Romanian one should be AT/wheel like the rest.)

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It's worth to add some tracked artillery tractor. Since 1935 Czechoslovakia used some 200 of them, mostly medium Praga IV model. It could be copied from Slovak unit 155 Praga T-VI-R, with some generic name (although the photo represents a later model T-VI, not used by CS Army, but it could do).

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Slovak OOB:


002 LT-35 - icon should be 473, like Czechoslovak one - all sources agree, that they retained their pre-war camouflage.

007 LT-38 - according to Kliment/Francev, the tanks were finally delivered in German yellow (icon 4437) (first five were in pre-war camouflage, then new tanks were delivered in khaki, and finally yellow). Yellow icon would allow to differ from 011 LT-40 (which are said to be khaki only).

It's worth to add early LT-40 tanks with two MGs only, used from 11/40 until 12/41, also in combat (photo: http://utocnavozba.wz.cz/foto/Fotky_Praga/LT-40_01.jpg )

33 PzKw III N, 34 Marder III H - basic icons should be yellow 1039 and 3009, according to Kliment/Nakladal "Slovenska armada 1939-1945" and this color plate: https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/030...2022335672.jpg
All signs show, that this should apply also to 32 PzKw II, which surely weren't green (only Czechoslovak-delivered vehicles were). Yellow icon is 1434 (BTW: current desert icon is white).

78,81 37mm KPUV vz 37 - best icon is 8008, as stated before (now it's split-trail field gun).

90 76mm Field Gun (vz.30) - according to Kliment/Nakladal "Slovenska armada 1939-1945", the only light field guns used by Slovak army were 75mm vz.15 mountain guns (I've described it in CS section) - Slovakia had no modern vz.30 guns.

Same for unit 185, which additionally has Heat ammo (I don't know if it existed for old vz.15 mountain guns).


The same applies for 92 76mm Field Gun (Inf. gun).

(a small number of 75mm leIG-18 were also received from Germany in 1943).

91 100mm Howitzer (vz.30) - same remarks, as for Czechoslovakia - range 206 is too big (should be 201), best icon is 2170.

72 76mm Battery - the only 76mm guns used were on-map vz.15 (range 7 km)

174 149mm Battery - the same remarks as for Czechoslovakia. Slovakia didn't receive long-range 152mm guns (pictured), but had 149mm vz.25 howitzers instead.

There also could be added long-range 105mm gun vz.35, described earlier, used by Slovakia according to Kliment/Nakladal "Slovenska armada 1939-1945".

154 Steyr RSO - according to Polish article on RSO, Jentz's book on Pak 40 auf RSO and German Wikipedia https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raupenschlepper_Ost , max speed of the RSO was only 17 km/h (now 10)
Same for Polish LWP #55 RSO, German #154 RSO and Romanian #224.

155 Praga T-VI-R - only 25 km/h according to Czech book on artillery tractors (now speed 12).

175 220mm Battery - there were no 220mm artillery in CS army (as stated before), and Slovakia didn't receive other siege artillery.

From mid-42 Slovakia used also 105mm leFh18.

187 5cm PaK - no info in Kliment/Nakladal "Slovenska armada 1939-1945", that they were given by Germans (and there is quite detailed list) - only Pak 40.

I believe, that's all.

[Pibwl]

It's a detail, but according to Kliment/Francev, OA vz.27 armoured car had "much improved fire efficiency" comparing to previous model, "due to the use of spotting scopes on the machine guns". So maybe it's worth FC=1, like eg. Polish TK-S tankette with a scoped MG.

I promise, this time that's all

A couple of pictures attached, including typical CS tractor Praga IV.

[Pibwl]

Thank you, on behalf of Western Slavs