Some things

[mac5732]

wr8th, "Terrible Swift Sword" most excellent game, probably one the best if not the best of the Civil War Board games. I still have it, but haven't played it in several years, also have a lot of Old SPI games. but TSS was the most popular with myself and friends. ahhh what memories.

My opinion only, Graphics in a game should be rated according to the game type, shoot-um-ups like Quake, Doom, etc graphics would be big issue as well as play, in war games like Gettysburg, Shilo etc graphics are more terrain & unit type which are important but not as much as the game play, In space games, there is only so much you can do with graphics, other then ship-sets and race portraits, Planets, suns, astroids etc will always look the same or similiar there isn't a whole lot you can do, unless you have tactical ground combat whre graphics would become a bigger concern. to me, balanced game play and challegning AI mean more then beautiful graphic images. don't get me wrong, graphics are nice to look at, but the game play is the most important at least to me. You can have the best graphics ever designed, but if game play is lousy, then you wasted your money. Its not whats on the outside but whats on the inside that really counts. Yes Graphics catch your eye on the boxs and look sharp, but they don't tell you how the game plays.

just some ideas mac

[QuarianRex]

I had a similar problem. First heard about SE4 in a review of the best space empire games of all time and decided to take a look. By that time SE4 was out of print and I had to wait for Gold (still am actually).

When talking about graphics though, I should note that the lower graphics were one of the things that DREW me to this game. I love the idea of modding and making variant shipsets and this would not be possible if I needed an advanced degree in graphical design to make something that I could be proud of. As it is, all i need to do is a little screen-capture/background-colouring/resizing and I have a workable shipset. That is something that even someone of my modest skill (with the help of ACDSee and paint) is capable of.

Uber graphics would nullify one of the games main selling points, the ability to customize it to your liking.

[Gryphin]

EvilKnight,
I don't think we missed your point. I also don't think Space Empire players fit the "norm" as seen in a survey about what computer game players want. There is a thread, "How Old are You" that showes most of the people who posted to that thread started as people who played board games and miniatures. Graphics is not a high point in "cardbord" games. Qualty of play is very high. There are a couple of threads about what people would like to see in Space Empires. I don't recall seeing graphics mentioned.

Another aspect of graphics in this game. People like / want to create their own graphics.
Indeed, The graphics for Squad leader were byproducts of the graphics created by people who "modded" PanzerBlitz and Panzer Leader. Those are cardboard games by Avalon Hill.

I discovered SEIII when a friend mentioned it. I would not be surprised if word of mouth or an Online review is how most if not all people find out aobut Space Empires. I expect that the demo is what sells the game at that point. There is a another thread I belive started by Richard within the Last two weeks that among other things explains why this game is not available retail. In short, retail has been the death of many a good game company and their games.

As for the graphics in older computer games, please see my post about Empire Deluxe.

Overall, I do see your point. I do follow your arguments. They are well put within the context you mention. Even as you qualify your points , you define by not describing what I have seen in most of the people who play Space Empires.

I don't know if this helps.
Anybody think I'm off base here? I've an open mind and would like feedback. Also, Does anyone have the links to the threads I mentioned?
Thanks

[EvilKnight]

like i said guys i agree that graphics arent the world of gaming and i do agree that the look doesnt always match the gameplay which i named off some games already. all im saying is that it wasnt what i expected, and and the game type does make a difference to just like Major Mac said. Hell i used to play d and d. hell most gamers (expessailly stragegy games start like that). so your saying Gryphin that you've never bought a game just because of how the box looks? I didnt say i didnt like the game now (read my ealier Posts) i liked the game over all. it was just that section where i feel it was lacking. you guys make it seem like im knocking the game, because of gameplay and im not. How many are gonna buy MOO3? i am.
new subject kinda off base but gamers to me don't judge eachother by race, reglion, sex, occupation, age, and anything else you can think of. gamers are well fir lack of a better word at the moment their own race of people, who else in the world would get on a game and talk about some of the wild stuff we talk about ( and know what we are talking about), some of the funnest things are that ive gotten mail from all over the world when i played MAnkind (in game mail system) from gamers like you and me who felt americas pain and im sure they dont want other gamers to die becuase think about what kinda of world would it be with out gamers? it was a bit off base i know but i got an in game mail yesterday on MK and a guy was talking about this. thought i'd share.

[EvilKnight]

i didnt mean funnest like it sounds ok.

[Gryphin]

EvilKnight,
Gotcha,
Based on what is on the box? I've been buying games for over 20 years. I can't say never. I can say that I belive the main factors have been:
Recomendations by others
Experiance with the companys other games, (this is more for board games). This does not hold as true for computer games.
Since I don't buy "arcade style / shoot em ups", I belive I have always looked for a referance to the 3Xs even before I was aware they ad been "defined". The key words for me were always Strategy, Conquest, Eploring, Expansion, War game and the like.
Um, If I understand
"most gamers (expessailly stragegy games start like that). "
You mean that most stratey game players start out as RPG players. I would have to say that is your experiance. I personaly doubt you can make that broad a statement. It may have changed since I was in my early 20s.

ER: no, not that you were knocking the game, but rather we addressed the comments you made and were careful to apply it to ourselves and our gneral experiance with others.

Yes, within the WarGame community there is a lot of mutual respect and many friendships built like the ones intermixed with the Gryphin GrowlTigga thread, (now the "Ye Olde Galatic Bar and Grill and Phongs Head Cantina").

EvilKnight, please don't feel like we are picking on you. We truly are just exchanging views and sharing experiances. Try to remember that tone inflection does not come through in print. Catch some of my other post and I think you will find I am harmless, (unless you are on the recieving end of my Torps).
Enjoy the game and I hope to trade blows with you in PBW some day.

[mac5732]

EvilKnight, please don't feel that anyone thinks you are knocking the game, if that is the impression you got, I apologise, this forum is open and has frank discussions on all kinds of topics, everyones opinion counts and most are discussed, that doesn't mean anyone is downplaying you. If you read the threads on this forum, you will see quite a number of questions, discussions and good and bad points concerning the game, this forum is not like most others, everyone is allowed to say what they feel and in the process opens it up for discussion by the rest of us. If you took our responses out of context I once more apoligise for myself, no offense intended, by discussing things is how we end up petitioning MM for changes, thats what makes this game and forum unique, because MM & Shrapnel listen to us gamers and they try to fix what those of us mention.

just some ideas mac

[capnq]

Richard has said that the reason you don't see Shrapnel's games in stores like Babbage's is that they've never found a distributor whose terms were fair.

[Rlaney]

I used to buy games based on the picture on the box. Got some great games that way but also got burned a fair amount of times. With age most of us learn to be more frugal with our spending money, either through the painful process of getting burned or just sheer necessity. Nobody is accusin EvilKnight of knockin the game, and he's right. The graphics will scare off some players but I think the more seasoned players among us have learned to look beyond the surface for a deeper...something. Be interesting to know how long people who like SEIV have been playing games. I think the wisdom would come more with experience than with age. BTW... thanks for remindin me about x-com and master of magic. Now I gotta dig out the old 3.5's and load them up again.

[Nebraskan]

Rlaney, I love SE4 and have been playing Space Empires since SE2 was available. I started playing computer games in 1976, a game called Planet Miners for the TRS-80. Games have come a long way since then. The reason I stick with Space Empires is the constant support of the game by MM. With most big publisher games support ends as soon as the team moves on to the next game, not so with MM.