Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[Saber Cherry]

I kind of wondered too. I don't see any reason to nerf their strength, but boosting the cost to 2 gems seems fair.

[Huzurdaddi]

I think he boosted their prot since big vines are basically like bark and bark has prot of 10. As for the increased defence, I don't know. Not like it makes a heck of a lot of difference.

Finally, I totally agree that a cost of 2 gems would help balance them out.

*or*

We could simply mod casters to be more expensive ( as Saber Cherry was talking about ), perhaps x2 or x3 as expensive. That way mage turns would be far more precious and the cost would be balanced at 1 gem.

[Graeme Dice]

ioticus said:
Zen, why did you increase the power of the Vine Ogre? I think if any summon deserves a nerf, that is it (besides the Devil and Fiend of Darkness.)

I still don't see why people are so concerned about vine ogres? They are slow to summon, take huge amounts of the most valuable gem type, and are slow strategically. Unlike skeletons, which have a similar power level on the battlefield, they aren't lifeless, so you can't even swamp a SC with them.

[Saber Cherry]

Graeme Dice said:

I still don't see why people are so concerned about vine ogres? They are slow to summon, take huge amounts of the most valuable gem type, and are slow strategically. Unlike skeletons, which have a similar power level on the battlefield, they aren't lifeless, so you can't even swamp a SC with them.

Most valuable gem type? I consider Death, Earth (esp. for hammers or alchemy), Fire (for alchemy), Astral (very useful and transmutable), Water (clams), and Slaves (summons, contracts, earth-blood stones) more useful. I mainly use Nature for winebags, summer swords, totem shields, vine ogres, lamia queens, the occasional swarm, and some Fairy Queens if the game gets that far. Of those, I'd rate winebags, ogres (rarely vinemen), and lamia queens the best. Am I missing something?

In any case, I'd almost always want 10 vine ogres (good strength, HP, attack, need-not-eat, 2 attacks, poison-immune, no upkeep, no magical leadership, no morale failure) rather than 5 nature gems.

You don't have to use them for swamping SCs, because you can use them to swamp many other things, considering they only need research-3 (and cons-4, for thistle mace). They are great as garrisons or bodyguards, needing no food, upkeep, or special leadership. They have better strategic mobility than undead (IMO), with 2 moves and forest survival. They cannot effectively be trampled. Best of all, cheap, common Druids can summon them (with thistle maces and ivy crowns, both of which Druids can make). Overall... they rock! And they're the only good low-level summon outside of Death and Blood.

[Graeme Dice]

Saber Cherry said:
Most valuable gem type? I consider Death, Earth (esp. for hammers or alchemy), Fire (for alchemy), Astral (very useful and transmutable), Water (clams), and Slaves (summons, contracts, earth-blood stones) more useful.

Basically it comes down to rings of regeneration, gift of health, and haunted forest. Gift of health and haunted forest can both be game-winners.

In any case, I'd almost always want 10 vine ogres (good strength, HP, attack, need-not-eat, 2 attacks, poison-immune, no upkeep, no magical leadership, no morale failure) rather than 5 nature gems.

Wouldn't you rather have 5-12 Lamia's for that cost?

You don't have to use them for swamping SCs, because you can use them to swamp many other things, considering they only need research-3 (and cons-4, for thistle mace).

Once you've built up enough of a force to take on your opponents, it will likely be past turn 20-30 and into the mid-game where you can expect to see battlefield spells, elemental royalty, and blood commanders.

And they're the only good low-level summon outside of Death and Blood.

True, but that hardly makes them overpowered.

[PDF]

Graeme,
I'm not convinced by your arguments :
Nature *has* some good spells, sure, but that does not make green gems more valuable than the others. IMHO they are often pretty much useless unless you play a nature-oriented nation, which is not the case with Astral, Earth, Death or Fire gems. The only less useful gems are Water...
As for Vine Ogres being inferior to Lamias, true again, but Ogres are a lesser summon and rather make better damage-absorbers than Lamias. Lamias require a higher level to cast effectively, Vine stuff having easy "improving" items.

Eventually I don't think Ogres need a boost - or rather all other low level summons require a much more serious boost !

[Oversway]

or rather all other low level summons require a much more serious boost

Are you saying this mod didn't boost the other summons enough, or are you referring to the unmodded game?

[The_Tauren13]

Graeme Dice said:
They are slow to summon,

How is getting 2 per turn with just about any mage, even a common indy mage (druid), slow?

Graeme Dice said:
take huge amounts of the most valuable gem type,

2 ogres per one gem isnt 'huge', and nature isnt any more valuable than any other gem type.

Graeme Dice said:
and are slow strategically.

What do you mean by 'slow'? They have 2/12 movement, so you cant mean that.

Graeme Dice said:
Unlike skeletons, which have a similar power level on the battlefield, they aren't lifeless, so you can't even swamp a SC with them.

... and they cant be banished and arent susceptable to solar brilliance and other undead killing type things.

[The_Tauren13]

Graeme Dice said:
Basically it comes down to rings of regeneration, gift of health, and haunted forest. Gift of health and haunted forest can both be game-winners.

Why are these so much better than tartarians, wish, and clams?

Graeme Dice said:
Wouldn't you rather have 5-12 Lamia's for that cost?

I would absolutely rather 10 vine ogres than 3 lamias, and it would take a level 12 mage to get 12 for that cost.

Graeme Dice said:
Once you've built up enough of a force to take on your opponents, it will likely be past turn 20-30 and into the mid-game where you can expect to see battlefield spells, elemental royalty, and blood commanders.

...and they make great tanks for your own mages. 106 HP for 1 gem is hard to beat. And by turn 20-30, you will have ivy kings making 4 for 1 gem (212 HP), which is impossible to match with any other summon.

[Graeme Dice]

The_Tauren13 said:
How is getting 2 per turn with just about any mage, even a common indy mage (druid), slow?

Mostly because you are getting only two per turn, instead of a minimum of 4 points of research.

2 ogres per one gem isnt 'huge', and nature isnt any more valuable than any other gem type.

Two ogres are hardly a significant force. You'll need to spend 30 gems or more before you have a force that's anywhere near dangerous, and that will fall to a single battlefield spell.

What do you mean by 'slow'? They have 2/12 movement, so you cant mean that.

They can't be made to fly. As such, they are slow on the strategic map.

... and they cant be banished and arent susceptable to solar brilliance and other undead killing type things.

Yet they are still just as susceptible to all other mass killing spells. They also don't come in groups of thousands, unlike undead.