Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Jarkko]

Sombre, I don't know if you are obtuse or just pretend to be, but I have asked if people have seen Fire Arrows been used in MPs under CBM. Ok, I got it, you have used it in SP. Fine. Could you please now carry on and either answer what I asked, or please ignore the question if you don't have a clue, please?

[Psycho]

I've used it with LA Man in vanilla, CBM makes it impossible to get it early enough and limits you to casting it only with your pretender.

I've seen it used recently in CBM 1.5, where the player using it lost nearly his entire army in two turns against a FR 100% thug. It was still early in the game - around turn 20 I think.

IMO it was not an overpowered spell in vanilla and certainly not on par with darkness. It can be countered much more easily.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Sombre, I don't know if you are obtuse or just pretend to be, but I have asked if people have seen Fire Arrows been used in MPs under CBM. Ok, I got it, you have used it in SP. Fine. Could you please now carry on and either answer what I asked, or please ignore the question if you don't have a clue, please?

No, I used it in MP. I've already gone out of my way to answer your questions. Don't worry that won't be a problem in the future though. Good luck getting the discussion you're after with the condescending attitude and selective reading problem you seem to have.

[Maerlande]

I have been using Fire Arrows very heavily in a CBM game with Patala. The combination of CBM and Worthy heroes makes Fire Arrows a great choice for monkeys if you get a bit of luck with heroes. And it fits with other research for monkeys so in no way is it out of the normal research paths.

Also, I find that with Patala at least, empowering in fire is a given so that you can forge all the lovely cross path F/W/E/S items with Nagarishi's. So it's a great spell in CBM.

[Quitti]

I've certainly used flaming arrows with nations (in CBM) that have an easy access to it (f2+booster or f3 casters with phoenix power). It's a very good spell, and enchantment has some very useful spells in addition to that, such as domes, demiliches, skeleton spam, some buffs, cloud trapeze, dispel to name a few. Still, I wouldn't generally solely rush to it, as it certainly isn't a very early game viable spell at ench5, when there's useful stuff to be had in other paths such as con, conj, thaum and early evocations. It all depends on the nation you're playing to be honest.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Sombre

No, I used it in MP.

Originally Posted by Sombre

Like I said I don't have the MP experience to comment on its CBM usage.

Right, make up your mind already I am a simpleton and get easily confused... I am sorry if I sounded harsh, but I really don't understand wether you've seen it used in MP or not. I first got the impression you don't have experience of it in MP in CBM, but seems you do after all (despite what you said). Or maybe not. Maybe you are as unsure as I am at the moment?


Maerlande, did I understand right, in your experience Patala needs to get one of the special heroes, or to empower one of the normal monkeys to get access to Fire Arrows (and that as a side-effect rather than the reason)?

Quitti, in your experience, did you feel Flaming Arrows was worth it once you got it?

[Sombre]

Those statements aren't contradictory. I don't have the MP experience to comment on how often flaming arrows is used in CBM 1.6 or indeed more generally in CBM.

I have used flaming arrows in 3 or 4 CBM MP games. I used it most recently in Sign of the Hammer.

[Micah]

It's still a good spell in CBM, and is much overpowered in vanilla, at least before CBM nerfed it. Some playstyle changes as the game has matured might limit its impact now (mostly more reliance on thugs and less reliance on armies), but it was absolutely brutal back when I started playing Dom, and the major counterspell (arrow fend) is located at level 6 research, so there was plenty of time to get brutalized in the meantime.

At level 5 the spell is reasonable, at level 4 it was a major research goal for anyone that could get archers and an F caster, since it's more or less an I-win button against any army outside of the Abysians, barring a gross mismatch in army strength. Not bad for an F2 caster with phoenix power and a couple of gems.

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Quitti, in your experience, did you feel Flaming Arrows was worth it once you got it?

Not solely, but investing in enchantment magic is well worth it for most nations. Flaming arrows is a good tool to have as it is very brutal against low/med prot units. Funnily enough Pangaea, which you used as a example has one of the easiest counters to that strategy, army of gold/lead castable by national mages. I wouldn't base my strategy just on flaming arrows + archers/slingers, but I've used it to complement what I do, and in that role it performs excellently. So yes, it was worth it, I just haven't prioritized it over other stuff I find more important.

[kianduatha]

As far as balance for Flaming Arrows goes...it's still crazy effective for nations that can get it easily, it's just no longer worth beelining to(and in some cases getting a pretender that can cast it, even without national fire mages). Anything worth that was grossly overpowered.

That being said, the second fire gem is probably no longer necessary.

Speaking of Enchantment, though, Riches From Beneath is simply ludicrous now at E5. I count a whopping 5 nations(EA Atlantis, EA Agartha, Vanheim, Kailasa, and MA Agartha) who can cast it without a pretender. Of those 5, only MA Agartha might want to cast it--except I can't think of a time when I'd rather cast Riches From Beneath over having one more kitted Marble Oracle(if you need troops, cast Hidden in Sand with the gems instead).