Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Grendelkin did not need to be nerfed. Without magic they aren't good for much beyond anti-thug/SC duty or army assistance. The rather high strength they started with (45) was the only thing that made them interesting at all - nerfing this has reduced any desire on my part to summon them.

+1. I tthink they're a waste of water gems right now.

Haven't been notably impressed with Shishi, but i don't think i've seen them used well yet. I have seen a lot of them, but they mostly just died =)

They seem to make good raiders.

[Fantomen]

Shishis are nice raiders, I used tham a lot and I think they're nice and balanced. Actually I'm not sure the attack nerf was even warranted.

Also agree on the grendelkin and roc, I think our dear llama was a bit too quick with the nerfbat in general.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Grendelkin did not need to be nerfed. Without magic they aren't good for much beyond anti-thug/SC duty or army assistance. The rather high strength they started with (45) was the only thing that made them interesting at all - nerfing this has reduced any desire on my part to summon them.

I think combining high attack, damage and HP in one unit is a bad idea. The key nerf they received wasn't the strength drop but the 4 point drop in attack skill. I think that was crucial in order to give anti-SC thugs a chance against them.

I support the drop in strength as well, but really they still do a lot of damage. And I can't think of any SC with more HP. And since they don't have undead/demon/magic being tags you can't use damage multiplying weapons against them the way you can most SCs.

Sure, they aren't great operating solo since they have no built-in resistances or magic to buff with. But used in conjunction with an army, or just some mages to buff them, I think they can take out SCs and anti-SC thugs handily and handle troops fairly effectively as well.

OTOH, I wouldn't have a problem with giving them things like CR 50 or poor amphibian but, especially in the latter case, I don't think llamabeast likes the idea thematically.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

No opinion on summons which require nature gems - N is too valuable to use for them for any nation i've used with EDM summons.

This has been my experience as well. I like treants but I'd rather use my N gems to forge gear for other SCs/thugs and fuel globals. Not sure what to do about that, though, other than lowering their cost.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Older cyclops version was much better (E4 + random), as it actually allows access to E5 rituals with boots, which gives you a real reason to summon them. The newer version is far less useful, and not really worth the 30e in most circumstances. If you can't get more E than a Troll King, its simply not worth it, since the King is so much easier to summon (path requirement wise).

I agree that the old cyclops was much better. I seem to recall there was some concern about them overshadowing the elemental royalty? Rather than downgrade them to match the elemental royalty I'd prefer to see their old paths return and boost the elemental royalty.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I don't remember when Asynja changed. The version that was used in CPF3 seemed perfectly useful.

I'm very interested to hear feedback on this change. The Asynja isn't a great SC chassis but with glamour she can pick and choose her fights.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

None of these really reduce the demand for tarts, because tarts are still the best way to get magic diversity. Undoing the nerfs which stop the new summons from being useful for magic diversity is necessary, and even then tarts are still the best access to diverse magic. May need some other summons purely focused on providing magic diversity to actually compete.

I agree. It doesn't have to have the all-in-one magic diversity/SC potential of tarts but there does need to be a way to get that kind of late game magic diversity, other than through tarts.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Valerius

I think combining high attack, damage and HP in one unit is a bad idea. The key nerf they received wasn't the strength drop but the 4 point drop in attack skill. I think that was crucial in order to give anti-SC thugs a chance against them.

I support the drop in strength as well, but really they still do a lot of damage. And I can't think of any SC with more HP. And since they don't have undead/demon/magic being tags you can't use damage multiplying weapons against them the way you can most SCs.

Sure, they aren't great operating solo since they have no built-in resistances or magic to buff with. But used in conjunction with an army, or just some mages to buff them, I think they can take out SCs and anti-SC thugs handily and handle troops fairly effectively as well.

OTOH, I wouldn't have a problem with giving them things like CR 50 or poor amphibian but, especially in the latter case, I don't think llamabeast likes the idea thematically.

Here's the thing. You shouldn't be able to (easily) kill them with thugs. That's the wrong counter. They should be the undisputed kings of straight-up melee combat.

Vulnerabilities that (should) work:
Dropping a meteor on them (GftH)
soul slay, enslave mind, charm, etc...
Insufficient gear slots - basically, they can't achieve immunity to every element. So if they go with FR100 and CR100, hit them with lightning or poison.

So the appropriate nerf is to their MR if a nerf is necessary, say down to 15 or 16 base. Like with most vulnerabilities, gear can help, but they will be limited in just how high that MR can get, and are giving up other gear options to load up on MR gear.

Absolutely no on CR.

Absolutely yes on poor amphibian. I don't understand why they didn't have it to start with.

That said, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest they are actually overpowered. Hell, I'm doubtful they could even take an army by themself. Too many vulnerabilities. I mean, yeah, if you take a bunch of Pillar of Fire spamming mages against an FR100 grendelkin as your mage support you deserve what you get. But if you bring the right magic attacks to the battlefield, the grendelkin is going to die to concerted magic barrage. Hell, a Grendelkin without CR100 is going to die horribly to *numbness* spam if there's an army to follow it up. Or rigor mortis + grip of winter vs. a skelly spam army. Etc...

Basically, the 'kills absolutely any thug or SC it runs into, but dies horribly to armies' is an absolutely essential niche, because it forces people to continue to field armies. Making it vulnerable to thugs is entirely the wrong design decision.

[Valerius]

Oh, I don't think they're easy to kill with thugs even with the nerf they received. The strength nerf doesn't matter in this situation since if they hit most thugs will die anyway. The -4 to attack they received gives the thug(s) a chance - but I think that usually they'll die anyway since without a damage multiplying weapon they won't be able to inflict enough damage before the grendelkin connects.

We disagree on whether thugs should have a chance against them. I think they should because by that stage of the game all nations can either recruit or summon some kind of thug - but not all nations can field the S magic needed for most of your suggestions. BTW, I'd rather not nerf their MR since that effectively is just a boost to S nations when they face grendelkin.

As far as grendelkin operating solo, I agree with you that they can't really achieve immunity to everthing and also have decent MR, luck and reinvig. But I think this is a good thing and that they shouldn't be able to do that when operating in a solo capacity.

Where I think they really shine (and what I see as their main purpose) is in providing muscle for armies. In that situation you can equip them with 50% resist gear and have your mages boost them to 100%.

I want mention one other notable thing about them - darkvision 75. Unlike most non-undead/demon SCs they won't be crippled by darkness.

All in all, I think the nerf to grendelkin was reasonable and that they will continue to be used. If it turns out they are being recruited less I think a bit of a pricing adjustment would fix that.

[Finalgenesis]

A question, would mechanical giant receive bonus hp from Agartha golem cult?

[Finalgenesis]

Oh also a minor UI bug:

if there are enough commanders in a province where you can scroll the list up and down, and ember lord happens to be on the rightmost column (and not the 1st row), you cannot scroll the list back up above him, the UI registers the click on the ^ arrow as selecting the ember lord. Of course you can just select another province and switch back.

Great mod btw!

[Graeme Dice]

You can also use the + and - keys to scroll the list of commanders up and down.

[Fantomen]

Originally Posted by Finalgenesis

A question, would mechanical giant receive bonus hp from Agartha golem cult?

Just tested it, the answer is yes. Making it a very viable, and much needed, lightning immune SC for MA Agartha.

[Gandalf Parker]

Wouldnt it be generally more useful to edit the test nation on the distributed zip so that the # on each line is something like -- or ~ ?

I would think that most people want it not to show up. And the ones that do want to use it (please dont delete it) are usually more able to edit the file to replace all the ~ with #. Their editor might even support a mass find/replace action.