Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
My humble newbie opinion: I understand and affirm Kris O's stance (no better magic) and agree wholeheartedly with Zen:
Instead of NNNE pan, NNEE pan; this even fits thematically with "less tree-hugging, more steel" of New Age. It would also make them simply a bit more versatile, and hence more *fun*, no matter what that means in terms of power, and speaking of which I dont think it would be imbalancing.

I will have to think about this. I have a vague and growing feeling of liking, but I'm a bit shocked yet (not sure why - it just feels odd).

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

Cheaper perhaps. The awe is rather powerful. If combined with fear, reinvigoration or berserk blessings it can be very powerful. They do not suck, but they are vulnerable to crossbows and magic.

Look at it compared and you'll see it's not particularly a fair assessment for it's cost.

If they are vulnerable to half of the game (magic) and half of the melee portion (longbows/xbows) then they are certainly not worth the cost they are based at. If they are only valuable fighting against cheap, low morale, low damage melee units then there is a problem.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

>>-Improve the hoplites: strat move 2, hoplons instead of bucklers, more morale.
>I'd rather improve the less useful infantry, otherwise not a bad idea.

Perhaps. Hoplites just feel to me like they should be the strength of the theme. As it stands now the only unit that looks really useable to me is the Cataphract (assuming it's meant to have a light lance)

>>-Dryad Hoplites either need to be much improved, or much cheaper. They suck.
>Cheaper perhaps. The awe is rather powerful. If combined with fear, reinvigoration or berserk blessings it can be very powerful. They do not suck, but they are vulnerable to crossbows and magic.

I resolutely disagree: they suck. Other than the awe they have nothing going for them, and the awe is off greatly diminishing use against troops with > 10 morale. They would be stronger in melee with a few extra points of defense instead.

By way of comparison, they are not in anyway even close in power to Sidhe, the closest comparable troop I could think of, yet they cost more.

In general I think the power of low levels of awe 0 is overrated, although it's quite effective at higher levels.

>>-Maybe the Grove Guards could be sacred?
>Nah. They have a sacred feel, but that is a delusion of the faithless people of the new era

Just a thought. They'd have to have white skin anyway, which would be more work.

>>-Reduce the price of dryads to 90-100, now that they only have holy 2.
>>-Reduce the price of Pan a bit, 300-320.
>We're not that fair. One point of the theme is that mages and priests cost the same while losing power. Panii should perhaps cost more. There are fewer of them after all

I agree, it's better to balance factions than units. However, to make up for their unfair costing you have to really strengthen NE in other areas to make them viable.

Oh, and I definitely think NE Pan should have EENN instead of ENNN. This would make a huge difference!

[HotNifeThruButr]

Pangaea's units, even New Era ones, seem to make up for low armor and poor arms with a higher strength (I believe satyrs are 11 or 12 strength), meaning higher attack to make up for crappy spears and a high hp (14 to a satyr or centaur, I haven't played Pangaea in a long time).

[Kristoffer O]

>Perhaps. Hoplites just feel to me like they should be the strength of the theme. As it stands now the only unit that looks really useable to me is the Cataphract (assuming it's meant to have a light lance)

Hoplite improvement seems good. Light satyr inf should probably be empowered for the sake of default pan rather than for new era.

>I resolutely disagree: they suck. Other than the awe they have nothing going for them, and the awe is off greatly diminishing use against troops with > 10 morale. They would be stronger in melee with a few extra points of defense instead.

>By way of comparison, they are not in anyway even close in power to Sidhe, the closest comparable troop I could think of, yet they cost more.

DH were mass tested without blessings vs ulmish infantry and stood their ground. But you are right, they are much more expensive than sidhe.

>In general I think the power of low levels of awe 0 is overrated, although it's quite effective at higher levels.

We at illwinter are awed by awe and fear it greatly. No other special effect is given as much undeserved respect.

>Just a thought. They'd have to have white skin anyway, which would be more work.



>I agree, it's better to balance factions than units. However, to make up for their unfair costing you have to really strengthen NE in other areas to make them viable.

Hmm. 'Really' seems a bit strong. They are weaker, but to 'really' strenghten them seems a bit too much.

>Oh, and I definitely think NE Pan should have EENN instead of ENNN. This would make a huge difference!

I'm being more positive by the minute

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

>Hoplite improvement seems good. Light satyr inf should probably be empowered for the sake of default pan rather than for new era.

I concur. IMHO Arallen's mod does a good job of this.

>DH were mass tested without blessings vs ulmish infantry and stood their ground. But you are right, they are much more expensive than sidhe.

I never thought ulmish infantry were so good, although I guess they are middle of the pack. Plus, they're exactly the sort of thing that Dryad's would be best against.

Still, I'm surprised the DH were even gold for gold with Ulmish infantry. Outnumbered 5 to 1, I just can't see how they'd keep up.

>We at illwinter are awed by awe and fear it greatly. No other special effect is given as much undeserved respect.

*Grin* Well put. ;-) ;-)

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Jasper:
-ulmish sytle resistance to drain?

I'd rather have resistance to turmoil actually, since it might fit better.

That would be great, except the requirements of NE is Order 1, Production 1

[tinkthank]

I'd sort of not like resistance to drain, if only because I think nations shouldnt have "special" abilities of the others' (drain resistance, conscription, resistance to death, etc.). I think a slight reduction in the cost of dryad hoplites without increasing their power is more than enough, plus a change to the NNEE pan. Keeping the Harpy Queen is also a nice idea.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Jasper:
Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

>DH were mass tested without blessings vs ulmish infantry and stood their ground. But you are right, they are much more expensive than sidhe.

I never thought ulmish infantry were so good, although I guess they are middle of the pack. Plus, they're exactly the sort of thing that Dryad's would be best against.

Still, I'm surprised the DH were even gold for gold with Ulmish infantry. Outnumbered 5 to 1, I just can't see how they'd keep up.

Maybe the Ulmsmen get to pay full fatigue even when they fail to attack? Or if the masses were large enough, they might be unable to bring their full strength to bear on a smaller body of individually superior troops. Of course, this assumes that DH were able to damage Ulmish infantry at all, I don't see how they could without a strong Blood blessing or Fire 9.

Anyway, a unit that relies on awe to survive is not only vulnerable to missiles and magic, but also to mindless troops, and if it's a modest level of awe, anything with high morale (btw - do the starvation and dominion modifiers to morale affect awe rolls? What about the battle fright affliction?) Awe is not an effective main line of defense even at very high levels because there are so many forms of attack that ignore it completely.

Defense is bad enough as a main line of defense, but awe is even worse - everything that ignores defense also ignores awe, *and* several more things ignore or are only slightly affected by awe.

>We at illwinter are awed by awe and fear it greatly. No other special effect is given as much undeserved respect.

*Grin* Well put. ;-) ;-)

Well, you at Illwinter need higher morale then. I suggest some experience, blessing, or the heroic valor ability.

Of course, being mindless would solve your awe problem, but create some other problems.


At any rate, if NE Pangaea is intended to be a third-rate magical nation, they need to be first-rate military. Centaurs with composite bows? Cataphracts with lances? Minotaurs with throwing axes, or just better training (i.e. improved attack and defense) than the old era minotaurs? Satyr Crossbowmen? Giving them strong heavy troops would fit well with the concept of the theme and their required Productivity scale.