H2 priests: Why, when, how?

[Sombre]

True but that's a free H2 priest. No commander build slot required.

[Baalz]

Yes, but I just used that as a very commonly occurring case for illustration. The exact same mechanics work if you're using non-PD troops against, say an enemy pretender with a dom-10. Depending on the troops in question sermon of courage could certainly be better support than a mage. This is one example, but plenty a fight was won by once side sticking around one more turn. Certainly not always the case, but it's not that uncommon for sermon of courage to be very much carrying it's weight despite the opportunity cost of a mage.

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by Baalz

Yes, but I just used that as a very commonly occurring case for illustration. The exact same mechanics work if you're using non-PD troops against, say an enemy pretender with a dom-10. Depending on the troops in question sermon of courage could certainly be better support than a mage. This is one example, but plenty a fight was won by once side sticking around one more turn. Certainly not always the case, but it's not that uncommon for sermon of courage to be very much carrying it's weight despite the opportunity cost of a mage.

Given that you can only have a finite number of commanders (mages/priests) on the battlefield, I think the below holds true.

I would rather trade a mage slot for a single H2 priest spamming sermon of courage (remember that it has a pretty big AoE and costs the priest no fatigue) over the course of a battle than have NO H2 mage. This would be true for just about any nation.

So, generally, if your nation has access to H2 priests. I would stick one with every large army. They'll buff the fighters first if you stick them near the front, and then the archers later, and then they'll probably spam it some more on the fighters getting any they miss.

At the very least you can send that preacher around to preach. something that most newer players don't know is that if you don't have at least one white dom candle in a province you own, all the positive scales have ZERO effect, but all the negative ones are still working at full force. Sometimes just preaching yourself up to 1 white candle can give you half again in income from a province (if you have good scales, or if the dom of someone else does), which easily pays for the H2 priest.

Jazzepi

[Endoperez]

There's also the Holy War mod that's in its early stages. I'd like to have a mod change holy magic (if you can't guess from the long posts I wrote there), and the more opinions written in the thread, the better the chance of Holy War turning into a balanced and oft-used mod.
linky

[vfb]

I remember my expansion Awe god getting absolutely trashed by a "special" barbarian indy province that had an H2 priest commander. It wasn't there from an indy random event, since there were no militia. I've only ever seen that special indy the one time.

[Sombre]

So which nations with h2 priests do you recruit them for?

At the moment it seems people are talking theory and citing niche examples where having +2 morale makes a difference. I think it's much more common that it makes no difference and the national H2 is a waste. And it's silly to compare it with just a support mage slot - it should be compared with a researching, site searching, ritual spamming mage slot. The general run of the mill mage you make almost every turn wherever you can. While the H2 is a near complete waste if he doesn't toddle off and support an army, that isn't true of the mage, so don't restrict the comparison as if it is.

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by Sombre

So which nations with h2 priests do you recruit them for?

At the moment it seems people are talking theory and citing niche examples where having +2 morale makes a difference. I think it's much more common that it makes no difference and the national H2 is a waste. And it's silly to compare it with just a support mage slot - it should be compared with a researching, site searching, ritual spamming mage slot. The general run of the mill mage you make almost every turn wherever you can. While the H2 is a near complete waste if he doesn't toddle off and support an army, that isn't true of the mage, so don't restrict the comparison as if it is.

Well that's a silly run of logic. It's not like you have to recruit a H2 mage on turn two and have him sitting around with a thumb up his *** w. It's easy enough to produce him, and pack him up with an army a few turns before a big battle.

My point is that if your decision is between building one more mage to sit around and research, or building one more combat support mage, then I would rather have the H2 priest packed up with my main army.

I mean, maybe you don't build any armies over 50 troops, but I do, and I'd like them to have more morale than the enemy troops. Especially the heavy infantry.

Jazzepi

[Baalz]

Originally Posted by Sombre

So which nations with h2 priests do you recruit them for?

At the moment it seems people are talking theory and citing niche examples where having +2 morale makes a difference. I think it's much more common that it makes no difference and the national H2 is a waste. And it's silly to compare it with just a support mage slot - it should be compared with a researching, site searching, ritual spamming mage slot. The general run of the mill mage you make almost every turn wherever you can. While the H2 is a near complete waste if he doesn't toddle off and support an army, that isn't true of the mage, so don't restrict the comparison as if it is.

Well, a direct comparison is a bit difficult because they fill such different roles, but to sum up:

1) H2 priests are pretty cheap, so recruiting a couple (rather than more expensive premium units) will get you almost an extra 800 gold fort in some cases. Certainly it'll speed up getting your second fort if you're doing this early.

2) Research is important, no doubt, but I think you're completely discounting the benefit a H2 priest gives you outside of combat. Pushing your dominion to cover those border territories which otherwise wouldn't be is significant. Not only do you get the benefits from your scales (which is often drastic), this is also the area you're most likely to be fighting in and also right where it's usually unwise to put up temples. Aside from preaching, you can gain a non-inconsiderable astral income from site searching with the priests.

3) As Agema mentions, if the priest is responsible for a fight being in dominion which otherwise wouldn't, it's really a 4 swing in morale for your friendlies and a -2 for the enemy. You tell me, is there a big difference in troops with an 8 morale and ones with 12? This type of swing can *certainly* be significant even in the late game. How much is it worth for your blockers (soaking up those big evocation spells the enemy is dropping) to stick it out a couple extra turns so your own mages get some more shots in? As pointed out, this doesn't make a difference for lopsided fights, but it's going to win you the close ones.

What more could you ask out of a unit costing 100 gold? Certainly they're not as useful as a 400 gold big mage across the board, but they can carry their weight. It's also kind of silly to ask for examples of when they make sense to use, several suggestions have been made already - Arco, C'tis, Abysia - well, using your mage/priest as a priest at least. There actually aren't that many straight h2 national priests, but I think they have a role most any time you've got them. They also make sense to recruit non-nationally when you've got the opportunity.

[JimMorrison]

Also, because of the way national casters are designed, it's true that few of them fall under the "aren't useful except for Sermon" clause.

Just 2 of the last 3 direct examples - Caelum's Seraphines are stealthy, and can fly. And Marignon's H2 is an Inquisitor, no?

I think Sermon is of rare actual use in expansion (if you are suffering much attrition, you are probably doing it wrong to begin with!), but it definitely is of great value in those BIG fights, where a large portion of what decides the battle, is whose line starts breaking first. When your more timid chaff breaks too early, all your elites get swarmed and chewed to pieces - and you wasted a lot of buff casting. Some nations in particular have mages more suited to casting little spells over and over, rather than dropping a few Thunder Strikes, and napping. With an endurance army, Sermon is certainly of more value than with a shock (no pun intended) army.

[vfb]

I hired a few H2s as MA C'tis. They are 100 gold versus 280 for an H3. By saving 180 gold on the priest I can almost afford another marshmaster.

H1s are crap for preaching and have no leadership. The H2s can raise dominion better than an H1, and MA C'tis troops benefit from the morale boost too. MA C'tis suffers from a lack of troop leaders because indy commanders get sick from miasma and die.