Baalz' good player pledge

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Micah

Oh no, this is the whole point of the thread: Fighting until the point where you are unable to affect the outcome of the game is what most experienced players in the community feel should be the default setting for MP games on this forum, not the exception to the rule.

Micah, I know of no facts that allow you to represent what most experienced players feel. It is certainly true that many experienced players feel that way.

Even so, I have seen a *lot* of experienced players bow out of games, including probably half of the hall of famers.

As an example of both sides of this issue: In Faerun, TC has run away with the game due to skill -but also due to his taking territories from nations that dropped.

I volunteered to sub in for Sauromatia (one nation that was staling). Doing a turn is probably 6-8 hours of sheer drudgery. I have no chances in the game. There are no interesting plays in the game. Frankly, it is like running your fingernails down a blackboard. Not too many people play sub positions - but require them to play to the end - and that number goes way down.

I understand that when you're the best - you want to play the best. You want the game decided by skill - not by someone dropping.

I agree completely.

But I don't want to be compelled to play a game that is drudgery hour after hour, turn after turn, merely because I signed up for a game.

More casual games want to play a game, to less exacting standards, I believe. Thats why I believe it is appropriate to do this on a per game basis. Nor do I think it is beneficial, reasonable, or possible to hold new players to these standards.

A new player is just going to say, screw this. I signed up to play a game, not waterboarding.

So telling people what the expectations are at the beginning of the game I think goes a long way towards reducing everyone's frustrations.

I think perhaps giving some turns of notice before staling, might also be beneficial, giving multiple nations the opportunity to profit - rather than only immediate nations.

[Alpine Joe]

Originally Posted by Calahan

I'd personally find it impossible not to perform better than the AI would in any situation. Scripting a single mage sensibly means doing better than the AI. Not buying loads of militia means doing better than the AI. Equipping a single item properly means doing better than the AI. Not attempting a suicidal break siege is doing better than the AI would. Even if I had just one Indy tribe mage left, I'd put him front centre and tell him to cast Vine Arrow. And even just that token effort would be doing better than the AI.

Would the end result of all this, ie. defeat, be the same given a hopeless position? Yes probably. Would the journey be the same? Not even close. And the journey is by far the most important thing for keeping games balanced.

Heh Calahan the AI would probably be doing better than me in Cripple_Fight, where I have played about 20 turns in pretty much this exact situation waiting for you to finish me off. Although I have learned a ton from watching different things fail miserably in that position, so I guess even that game (and bogarus in general) has value

[Micah]

Ano - The post you linked was WRT a concession, as opposed to a abandoning a position-in-progress. Deciding to end a game as a group is a very different situation from a single player abandoning their position. I don't have any issues with people moving to end a game, just with them leaving a game that is yet to be decided. Sorry that I didn't make this distinction clear in an earlier post.

[rdonj]

Pledged.

[Stretch]

And I've had bad luck on turn 1 to the point where I knew I was "defeated" and stuck the game out. (Dead pretender, for the record) I'm sure I played it a lot better than the AI would have and avoided creating a huge power imbalance in the game by fighting to the end as opposed to rolling over and giving my cap to my next-door neighbor without a fight. I actually managed to kill off HIS pretender when he got greedy and lasted quite a while (til level 6 research, I remember him casting arrow fend) The turns took 5 minutes and really weren't an issue.

This is the example of what I think that this pledge is designed to promote. Even with a big empire, someone playing it half-assed is still much better than the AI. Maybe you can't go full out, but you can set up some scripting, queue some rituals and try and catch a big few armies off guard. It doesn't have to be perfect, but at least you won't have a huge unbalancing effect.

[Burnsaber]

Excuse me for grammar, I'm just watching a freaking Rocky marathon and I'm a bit drunk. But I feel like I must respond immediately.

Jazeppi just said that I was one player to start this thread because I went suddenly AI. Sure my position was poor, the definition of underdog. But that didn't get me. I'm fine with playing the underdog, just ask TC in crusaders or Baalz in Sentient Machines.

Sure I didn't have many late-game tools available. But I'm fine with that. Just ask those who stick out to the ending of Rothfuss game.

But Baalz advertised the game as roleplaying one. I really looked forward to it. Like chronicles, you know, without the requiment that you have to write something, even if you're not feeling like it. When Calahan made his first awesome in-character post, I was absolutely hyped and started to write my own stuff.

But I was EA Oceania. Really go ahead, go ahead and read the descriptions for the units in the nation. Trust me, it won't take long. Not much to work with, eh? I had all these cool stories in my head, but they just wouldn't have worked with vanilla Oceania. it was simply aggravating. Everytime I looked at the units, I just saw my writers block all over.

It was like being Bit*h-slapped by the game everytime I opened the recruitment screen. I just lost heart and did a half-assed job of the nation. I got provinces (because I got oceans uncontested because coobe left), I got pretty nice gem income, but I just didn't do anything with it.

Now the nations in the late game and all I see is lost opportunities. If I had started moving those triton kings in turn 30, if I had forged that in turn 40, if I had empowered that in turn 35... Trudt me in this, the nation might be doing well in the graphs, but it's just a air balloon.

But anyways, I pledge. I just won't make the mistake of joining a random EA nation game ever again.

[Micah]

Chris - Just stating my observations of what I've seen and heard, I spend a lot of time in the IRC channel with most of the active vets, and I've played in quite a few games with them, so I think I have a pretty good handle on how they act in games.

Faerun does bring up a good point though: Late game dominions sucks, and maps shouldn't be that big. Prepo did a great job ramming that point home, it's just too much mm. I pushed to have Prepo end because it was heading that direction at a very quick clip, and people were already burning out...I'd encourage the Fearun players to consider a draw/concession given the horror stories I've heard about it, though I have no stake in the game at all.

[Baalz]

Maybe I wasn't very clear but my intent was to standardize a pledge that specific games could optionally link to. That's what I meant by "games I participate in which link to this thread." The reason I put this in a separate thread from a game thread rather than just pasting it to every game I host is because I feel like plenty of "casual" players don't really read all that stuff (as witnesed by the dropout rate in the legends game...I *begged* people to not sign up unless they wouldn't abandon the game). If people have to at least come to this thread and read it enough to figure out what to do I'm hoping they'll at least appreciate the commitment they're making to all the other players.

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

Jazeppi just said that I was one player to start this thread because I went suddenly AI. Sure my position was poor, the definition of underdog. But that didn't get me. I'm fine with playing the underdog, just ask TC in crusaders or Baalz in Sentient Machines.

I know you're drunk, but I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't think that you, in particular, were the impetus for this thread. Legends of Faerun, for whatever reason, has been mired in leavers including a Jomon who left in the middle of invading Sauromatia (who also left).

Beardaxe had some strange disappearances as well, including Atlantis who owned all the seas and had Forge of the Ancients up, clearly had some artifacts, and then just vanished.

Also, I personally had zero problem with you leaving. I've been in that situation before, and it's no good. There's no reason to trudge through the actions for a nation where you're just shepherding it to a slow, boring, demise.

Jazzepi

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Jazzepi

Also, I personally had zero problem with you leaving. I've been in that situation before, and it's no good. There's no reason to trudge through the actions for a nation where you're just shepherding it to a slow, boring, demise.
Jazzepi

Yeah, I re-read your post now that my heads a bit more clear. I apologize for my sudden burst. Beer goggles make you read stuff funnily (Rocky 1 & 2 went like a charm, but in 3 I started to depend on drinks to pull me through ).