Nations under CBM 1.6

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

T3 with gold-hungry Agartha? I think you just lost any authority in this discussion.

lol.u are just an idiot.
U are telling everyone agarthian troops are soo bad,why do you want the gold to produce them?
I mainly need gold for the oracles,which are cap only,and earth readers which are cheap.The rest is chaff,much needed,but just cannonfodder.10g11r 2 map move amphibian chaff.
Now,tell me,why do i need O3 here?
I got the idea from someone who won a big MP game here on the forum with EA Agartha,He took the line T3S2H3L3M1,death -1 AFAIK.
I read his AAr several months ago and tried that a lot in SP.
U take awake super Sc immortal pretender Risen oracle with something like S4E4D4 and v high dom.I took T3S2H3L3G0M1 though,dont like death scale.
I want gems for my v good national summons,not only Umbrals,but also Magma childs(to be backed by E4 or E5 mages) and Earth Elementals( v good for water fights).
How do i get many gems?
By taking turmoil+luck+magic combo.
Also you get some luck events most of the time to compensate for lack of gold at the start.
Try it before judging.

I stomb the AI in no time there,simply alone bc my Pretender stomps him.He is nearly unstoppable at around turn 5 already.
Mind you,thats dom2 style,where it was a lot more common to see strong starting pretenders.
I feel home there since i am a Dom2 vet,probably having a lot more MP victories under my belt there than you in DOm3.

[FAJ]

I have to agree with Squirrillord, about LA Ulm at least. Trying to design a pretender for them is like having a leaky roof with 10 holes and only having 3 buckets to catch it all.

I don't so much agree about the fountain being a bad choice. You mention the need for S4 for rings, but I think it is a bigger burden to get S4 on the pretender than it is to just empower an S2 Fortune teller, then give her a coin and a cap. They have an abundance of S2, S1E1 and E2 mages, so coins and caps shouldn't be a problem.

Also, considering the high resource to gold ratio for Ulm troops, you aren’t very gold hungry in the first couple turns. Blood hunting your capital to summon a Vampire on turn 3 isn't impossible/crippling in CBM. Maybe not super effective, but hunting your capital is not the end of the world.

@Mardagg

Keep in mind, the argument here is that these nations mentioned are weaker than others, not that they are garbage outright. Proving that some negatives are possible to overcome, or that a nation can compensate for a weakness doesn't prove that a nation isn't weaker than others. In either case, weak or not, providing a specific example of how a very particular build can be effective is evidence enough that the race is AT LEAST constrained in terms of variety.

On a side note, I think that it is ironic the way that post (#27) is started, and then subsequently composed.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by FAJ

@Mardagg

Keep in mind, the argument here is that these nations mentioned are weaker than others, not that they are garbage outright. Proving that some negatives are possible to overcome, or that a nation can compensate for a weakness doesn't prove that a nation isn't weaker than others. In either case, weak or not, providing a specific example of how a very particular build can be effective is evidence enough that the race is AT LEAST constrained in terms of variety.

On a side note, I think that it is ironic the way that post (#27) is started, and then subsequently composed.

Good Point.
But there is one thing we all have to keep in mind:
Being difficult to play isnt the same as being hopelessy underpowered.

[quantum_mechani]

On the subject of MA Ulm and Mackaka:

There is a reason I haven't arbitrarily upped the power of their national mages (or nerfed the magic levels of powerful nations mages). If anything is thematically defining about a nation it's the paths the mages have, so I am very reluctant to meddle with them.

Mackaka I don't think is nearly so bad off as people seem to think. As they stand I would say they are at probably better than Man, Eriu, MA Ulm or MA Agartha, and arguably better than Bandar Log or MA Marignon. Which is not to say I'm opposed to boosting them, I already made the hunter spiders much cheaper and upped the MR of the spider form, and improved PD is in the works.

MA Ulm is perhaps more legitamitly poor, but they are much harder to boost within the theme. In any case it's not like being forced to branch into blood was really a good solution to them being better either (it's also a bit hard to swallow that a nation without the native ability to forge any gem gens is made comparatively worse off by the change than those that could). I do think making the iron angel easier/cheaper to cast is an excellent idea.

[GrudgeBringer]

OK guys...I just wanted a list of EA weaker nations so I could post a list and you could pick from it for a game.

MY list included Ulm, Arco, Marverni, Argatha...after that I was relying on the forum.

Also, if you read the description, it was land nations only so any argument between Ryleh and Argatha is pointless in this thread (as much as I was enjoying it).

Thanks for the other nations mentioned and why, as I said I have not played CBM 1.6 much if at all, so I really didn't want to put in a nation that had been boosted and I was relying on old info.

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by GrudgeBringer

OK guys...I just wanted a list of EA weaker nations so I could post a list and you could pick from it for a game.

MY list included Ulm, Arco, Marverni, Argatha...after that I was relying on the forum.

Also, if you read the description, it was land nations only so any argument between Ryleh and Argatha is pointless in this thread (as much as I was enjoying it).

Thanks for the other nations mentioned and why, as I said I have not played CBM 1.6 much if at all, so I really didn't want to put in a nation that had been boosted and I was relying on old info.

Be careful about what the nation-restrictions do to the balance.
As an example, EA Agartha gets quite a boost if there are no aquatic nations in the game.

[Sombre]

I still believe both MA and LA Ulm troops should be boosted in the form of another enc taken off. Their melee troops are supposed to make you want production scales without any question and are supposed to be pretty much the best, highest tech troops in all of dom3. It's their whole thing - steel over magic. I don't think it goes against theme at all to just give them 1 less enc on all the heavies. This is a nation that lives in its armour.

[kianduatha]

As far as actual EA land nations...Ulm, Arco, Marverni, Agartha, Abysia, Tir Na Nog, and after that it's less clear. Just pick a few from Yomi, C'tis, Ermor, and Kailasa.

Now to the off-topic part: Machaka's fine once Hunter Spiders get the 5 strength they're missing and get a buff to their PD.

Ulmish troops truly could use a lower Enc, though for MA I'm more concerned with Iron Angels being more or less impossible to get out with your base casters. That's even okay--just make it Research 7 and 15 gems if your pretender has to cast it, though. Because face it, Iron angels aren't as good as the Earth Royalty, and if they're on the same research level and you don't have enough gems for both...

Also, if Wolfherds are training and breeding wolves, shouldn't their summon allies be better than normal wolves?

[KissBlade]

LA Ulm is definitely not deserving as one of the ten weakest nations. Rangers + shields are already ye olde proven tactic of xbows + blockers. Zweihanders and ghoul guardians (the latter of which are very nice against pretenders) are pretty nice melee cleavers. You get very very underestimated mages especially recruit-able everywhere second tier astral2/blood 1 mages who doubles as spies!

[Tolkien]

I shall jump on the LA-Ulm-isn't-underpowered bandwagon. A blood economy isn't that hard to start up: 3-4 Second Tiers and a nearby province and you'll be churning out enough slaves to summon a count or two in short order. Once the counts have been summoned, you then start relying on Blood-Random Fortune Tellers and Vampire Counts to boost the blood economy.

Early research is a problem, but it's a problem that doesn't last for too long. A major point of LA Ulm would be to put up castles ASAP. At 5RP for 170/5.67 gold, or 34/1.13 gold per Research point at Magic-1, Iron Priests are fairly cost effective researchers. While not the best, Ulm can certainly keep up in the research race beyond the first few months (where your mages will go directly into blood hunting), and certainly towards the midgame (with lightless lantern spam and/or skull mentors (if you really need it). At 4 gems a pop with their forge bonus, it's fairly cost-effective even without a dwarven hammer (which will simply reduce the gem cost by 1, and you need your earth gems for other things)).

I'd argue that Ulm is a fairly difficult nation to rush. No nation reliant on sacreds are going to go near Ulm, for the simple matter of ghoul guardians. I posted the test results in the CBM thread, but I think they clearly demonstrate ghoul guardians slaughtering dual-blessed sacreds. Elephants are easy to beat with Rats tails (+4 Animal Awe+Greater Fear on x2Attack+Const-2+N1), which are easily forgeable by Nature-Random Fortune Tellers. A Hochmeister with a Rat's Tail with one black templar bodyguard or two can rout many an elephant (not to mention elephants are expensive). If we compare Ulm's troops to Marignon's, they're nearly identical. The pikemen and halberdiers are the same in price and cost, and have identical stats except for HP and MR (+2 HP vs. +1 MR). Comparing Rangers to Crossbows, Rangers cost +3 gold, but has +2 Precision, Stealthy, Forest Survival, and are better in close combat then Crossbows. Men-at-Arms are +2 gold and -1 resources compared to Infantry of Ulm, and are better overall in close quarter combat, but Infantry perform better in their intended role, i.e. arrow catchers. The lower MR isn't really felt by Ulm during expansion and the early game. Who's going to mass units to exploit that weakness early on, mindblasting R'lyeh? They have the gold for that? When we move on into the mid-game, where nations will certainly start putting together MR reliant counters, you can easily put up Anti-magic and/or spam Tempering the Will with or without communions. Therefore, while the units aren't awesome, they certainly aren't crap.

While expanding can be a pain, there are actually several methods you can take beyond just the simple xbows+bows/shields technique. Certainly templars can be used as a quick and easy expansion methods against most indies, and Call Lesser Horror+retreat is also a viable expansion method (one that works similarly for, say, Bogarus), if you choose to go down that path. Expansion might not be as easy as, say, Mictlan and dual-blessed jags, but they can do it well enough. You just need to get creative, and find a good combination of the three.

Generally, I'd say it's a pretty good nation with a strong end-game (with Astral, Death, AND Blood). There can be minor tweaks made to it, for example lowering the cost of counts (this is something I suggest, although it may mean even larger armies of chaff for Ulm), encumberance, boosting the summon of wolfherders, etc., but honestly, it stands pretty well by itself. Stealthy communions and non-mindhuntable spies are underestimated, as well as kamikaze counts (hey, medallions of vengeance are only 4 fire gems. Why not?).