German OOB 16: minor corrections

[DRG]

They have been reserved for units that deserve to use up the final slots . I have resisted using them in case something really interesting was "discovered" but everything left seems to be like the Stalinez and the SdKfz.6/3

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

The SdKfz.6/3 will go in...

Good decision. These 9 vehicles with their long 76mm guns were an equivalent of a Nashorn company in conditions of the Western Desert

If something wasn't used in action, it was rather 968 sIG38/2 (t).

As for Stalinets - I only gave it as an example of something more widely used, than C7P, but of course it's your decision. The Germans called it Stalinez 65 (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinez_65)

[zastava128]

Well there was a whole bunch of Italian tanks seized by the Germans after Italian surrender (currently there are only two such vehicles in the OOB). Some were used in Italy, others in the Balkans, and I've heard a few were even used in Poland. Most were deployed for anti-partisan duty.

However, while including these tanks may be correct from a "realism" standpoint (after all, the Germans employed over 700 of them, plus 200 or so armoured cars), the fact is that they can be represented by taking "allies" from spob04, leaving more room for "real" German vehicles.

A book on the subject was written by Daniele Guglielmi: Italian Armour in German Service 1943–1945 (2005, bilingual Italian/English)

Anyway, if you nonetheless want to add them, just say the word and I can provide the info on what types were used and in what numbers.

[DRG]

I should have figured saying what I said would generate suggestions about how to fill the unused slots ....... but I will say I'm not actively looking for things to put in there. I'm just saying I'm a bit less inclined now to reject things than I was in the past few years as it became obvious we were reaching the limit

Don

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by zastava128

Well there was a whole bunch of Italian tanks seized by the Germans after Italian surrender (currently there are only two such vehicles in the OOB). Some were used in Italy, others in the Balkans, and I've heard a few were even used in Poland. Most were deployed for anti-partisan duty.

However, while including these tanks may be correct from a "realism" standpoint (after all, the Germans employed over 700 of them, plus 200 or so armoured cars), the fact is that they can be represented by taking "allies" from spob04, leaving more room for "real" German vehicles.

The irony in this suggestion, while certainly practical, is that the Germans seized pretty much all even remotely modern AFVs and nearly all new production vehicles from the Italians and the RSI army was left with scraps only. So, the RSI OOB4 actually has vehicles which were used only by the Germans like the M.43 75/46 and M.43 105/25 (which was used briefly by the Regio Esercito before the armistice, but the Germans confiscated all, including later new production vehicles).

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by DRG

I should have figured saying what I said would generate suggestions about how to fill the unused slots ....... but I will say I'm not actively looking for things to put in there. I'm just saying I'm a bit less inclined now to reject things than I was in the past few years as it became obvious we were reaching the limit

Don

Understood.

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

The irony in this suggestion, while certainly practical, is that the Germans seized pretty much all even remotely modern AFVs and nearly all new production vehicles from the Italians and the RSI army was left with scraps only. So, the RSI OOB4 actually has vehicles which were used only by the Germans like the M.43 75/46 and M.43 105/25 (which was used briefly by the Regio Esercito before the armistice, but the Germans confiscated all, including later new production vehicles).

Well I thought as much, though given game constraints it makes sense (and let's face it, most people play Normandy/West Front, East Front or North Africa - not many players are interested in Italy or the Balkans). A possible solution would be to put a "German tanks" or "Tanks in German service" formation in spob04 and re-name the relevant units.

And by the way, I think a couple of tanks are missing from spob04: M13/40 & M14/41. Do you know anything about this? I mean, I know the Germans used them, so it's weird the RSI's OOB has the more modern M15/42 (unit 6) while the Germans get the older models...

[DRG]

What German OOB with M13/40's & M14/41's are you looking at ? It's not ours. There are only two Italian vehicles in the German OOB and it's not those two


Don

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by zastava128

And by the way, I think a couple of tanks are missing from spob04: M13/40 & M14/41. Do you know anything about this? I mean, I know the Germans used them, so it's weird the RSI's OOB has the more modern M15/42 (unit 6) while the Germans get the older models...

Like Don said, I don't think they are in the German OOB, but if you meant that they used them historically, that is certainly true at least to some extent. There weren't many of those older models left in Italy in 1943, since most of them were shipped to North Africa. The last batches of M14/41 produced were in fact also the last Italian tanks delivered to Tunisia. The ones that remained were used as training vehicles for the re-building Italian armored divisions (Ariete II in particular). It appears that most of them were actually M13/40 models. They ended up in German hands after the armistice, but I have no information about their use by the Germans, since I don't have the book you mentioned.

I do know that the M15/42 was the most modern vehicle the Germans allowed the RSI to keep, while the Germans took the assault gun versions (Semovente M42 75/18 and M42 75/34) to their own use, as well as all the M43 chassis assault guns. Of course the Germans used the M15/42 as well for anti-partisan duties in the Balkans. The RSI used theirs similarly against Italian partisans. They did not see much, if indeed any, combat against the Allies.

(By the way, the Semovente M40 75/18 in the RSI OOB4 should definitely not be there; only 60 were made in 1941 and all except possibly the prototype were lost in North Africa. Also, the RSI did not operate any German made AFVs. The ones that were delivered to the Regio Esercito before the armistice went straight back to German units after the armistice.)

[zastava128]

Sorry Don, now that I've re-read the post I see I wasn't being clear enough. I indeed meant the Germans used the M13/40s and M14/41s historically.

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And PvtJoker - the mentioned tanks were actually used by the Germans for anti-partisan warfare (actual combat, not just training) at least until the end of 1944 (e.g. Panzer-Abteilung z.b.V.12 was recorded using both types in Yugoslavia in late 1944, while M14/41s were used against the Warsaw Uprising).


P.S. just to be absolutely clear, I'm not suggesting these should be added to the German OOB, but - maybe - to spob04 (if there's proof the RSI used them).

[DRG]

............ the other thing that limits a units inclusion into the final slots of the German OOB is it's weapons. There are four weapon slots left so unless it's really special I would favour something that has weapons already covered in the German OOB unless it is significant and I think were are past finding anything new and significant

As for the M13/40 no matter what I did someone could rightfully say it's wrong. According to the last few posts the M13/40 was used up to the armistice as training tanks then the Germans seized them and used them in the Balkans so they really should not be in the RSI OOB for any reason so yes, I could put them in the RSI OOB as a place to hold them but I sincerely doubt they are really needed unless someone's building a historical scenario and there are ways to dig them out of the Italian OOB if need be