Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem

[LintMan]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I recall Zen mentioned a switcheroo-style game.

The end result being that usually, the objective was to create the most perversely useless god combination possible, in hopes that you end up running the creation of someone less creative than you. I heard the blood-9 manticore was rather popular.

How about this for a switcheroo-style game:
Everyone designs a pretender for a race, submits it, and Posts the details of their design. If there are any stinker pretender designs, people can vote that that designer has to play his own cruddy pretender. All the other (resaonable) pretenders get randomly assigned to the other players.

Also, there should be a chance that you could randomly get your own design, so if you go for a very mediocre pretender (not quite bad enough for people to stick it to you), you still have to worry about getting stuck with it.

As far as creatively bad pretender designs, my pick would be for something like an immobile "rainbow" oracle or blood fountain.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
[...] If the VQ were significantly altered, such as losing a Misc slot, I'd be dumping it in favor of the GK. [...]

I don't think you would, Norfleet. Not after the first time you got feeble minded, or got some other seriously debilitating wounds (mute, blind) and realized that hey! Those inflictions aren't going away like they used to!

I almost think you'd start playing Carrion Woods with a Carrion Dragon instead.

Side note : Are there really supposed to be two bog mummies for Jotunheim, one immortal and the other not? [/quote]

One is a Dracolich.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Zen:

Side note : Are there really supposed to be two bog mummies for Jotunheim, one immortal and the other not?

One is a Dracolich. [/quote]

Eh... There's already a Dracolich showing up, for 50 points. A "real" Bog Mummy for 110. And a "pseudo" Bog Mummy for 100. Something is wrong if people can get a Dracolich for 50 points, or a Dracolich for 100 points.

[Maltrease]

A fairly radical idea, not directly related to the Vampire Queen but would solve the issue of it being nearly impossible to kill.

What is it was not possible to have total immunity to two opposing elements. If you are immune to fire than the best you could do is 50% cold immunity, etc.

I don't know what other elemental forces directly oppose each other but they could work in a similar way.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Maltrease:
What is it was not possible to have total immunity to two opposing elements. If you are immune to fire than the best you could do is 50% cold immunity, etc.

I don't know what other elemental forces directly oppose each other but they could work in a similar way.

Curious about that myself, since the two elemental staves are supposed to give partial resistance to each of the elements used in forging it. But I've never seen or heard of "Earth Resistance".

And I agree - right now it's way too easy to get elemental immunities. Seems like it'd be better if resistances went in 25 / 50 / 75 increments, and _only_ a few artifacts granted full immunity.

[ May 03, 2004, 23:08: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

[Blitz]

If the VQ were significantly altered, such as losing a Misc slot, I'd be dumping it in favor of the GK.

I don't think ANYONE has a problem with the Ghost King. It's a very strong pretender base, one of the best in fact. However, anyone can see that a GK is inferior in almost every respect to a VQ, yet you would choose it over any other SC chassis.

I have to ask though... what would you put in that extra misc slot... a pendant of immortality? C'mon man. Give me a break.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Something is wrong if people can get a Dracolich for 50 points, or a Dracolich for 100 points.

The dracolich isn't immortal, so it's priced at the same rate as the other dragons.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
I don't think ANYONE has a problem with the Ghost King. It's a very strong pretender base, one of the best in fact. However, anyone can see that a GK is inferior in almost every respect to a VQ, yet you would choose it over any other SC chassis.

That's because at the moment, the GK lives in the shadow of the VQ. It actually has many positive traits, and is in some ways superior to the VQ: If you're not interested in actually LOSING, the GK's higher defense value will keep him alive where the VQ would probably bite the dust. Sure, biting the dust is merely an irritation for a VQ, but you're still losing the battle. Immortality can't help you there, if you're losing province after province, and having your dominion replaced by enemy dominion.

The whining will surely start anew if the current crop of whiners has their way and gets a significant nerf to the VQ, when souped-up GKs start getting crammed down people's throats. The fact of the matter is that if you want a pretender tailored specifically for the express purpose of asswhailing, not for any secondary objective like blessing, or filling gaps in national magics, you're going to pick a chassis that supports this, and it's going to dispense a lot of indiscriminate justice....because that's what you paid for it to do!

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
It also has far cheaper paths: If you're not willing to screw over your scales to get the high and diverse magics needed to create a really heavyweight SC, you can go the GK route instead, and either get the same scales with higher paths, or more paths with the same scales. If the VQ were significantly altered, such as losing a Misc slot, I'd be dumping it in favor of the GK. The lifedrain is a minor matter, as the VQ loses its lifedrain when given a weapon, which you will do shortly anyway, just to prevent empty slots from picking up cursed items. The blood magic is mostly meaningless on the VQ, as blood is by far the cheapest path to empower in, and provides absolutely no benefit in combat, the main reason why you'd take a VQ: To have the best possible base chassis for building a monster SC out of it. In exchange, you basically get squat all as far as dominion strength(an unexceptional 2), and blessing bases(death/blood, neither of which are strong blessing material). You're going to have to pay for any extras yourself. While a potent defensive weapon, as an attacker, the VQ is somewhat less impressive, as immortality is gone in enemy dominion, and the chassis itself is physically frail, having a mere 23 base HP.

Um... norfleet, with all due respect, this is a bunch of hooey.

You do not need to give the VQ items to avoid boobytraps, because she drops everything when she dies. (at no penalty to paths) Even cursed, horror marked and afflicted she can be a uber-SC with no risk. Bully for recuperation!

Scales are nigh irrelevant, except for magic and luck.

Dominion dependent HP's are bugged, and in my experience, very rarely do you avoid a bonus, unless you are jumping from negative dominion to negative dominion (something you explicitly would not do with this strat) so regen is more useful than the chassis would indicate.

The life drain sometimes works even with through items(again bugged?), and since she needn't fear curses, you would in any case be foolish to divest yourself of the ability.

The path cost difference between 20 and 40 is immaterial, since the GK cannot rival the VQ as a naked SC. It may be that any immortal chassis is abusable, which is why I recommended changes in immortality, not the VQ per se.

Ermor has the points to be munchkinish here is all that matters.

Hell they might still be able to build a munchkin SC if the path cost were 80 for the VQ ...though someone would have to run the numbers. (I'm sure you have)

It is BROKEN for ermor. I know you are fond of it, but come on.

If you can build a (near or absolutely) naked immortal SC (esp with native high dominion), and get enough income from luck/overtaxing to protect your temples... there is no reasonable strategy that will do much more than slow you down.

Meanwhile ermor can afford to be patient as magic-3 gives them excellent research.

It has been demonstrated (by you) that this is quite a plausible scenario, and something therefore needs to be changed.

Basically AFAIKT if a person can attack ALL your castles with enough strength to get the walls down in simul, then they could threaten you.

This is unlikely to be the case, as you know.

Even if you subject to a huge pile-on (as you should be) it would have to be far more coordinated than most I've seen to have an effect.

Meanwhile whoever is *trying* fruitlessly to stop you is losing developmental ground to other nations and will eventually get cannibalized.

Rinse and Repeat and. Victory is nigh inevitable, if you are patient.

If there is a legitimate counter to the ermor-naked-VQ SC... with castles to protect omnipresent temples, I'd love to hear it.

I'm a fairly clever fellow, and I can't find one that is plausible with an even remotely level playing field.

Ironically, one might stop you temporarily with a non-drainable horde, but as you are ermor, the difficultly in acquiring such is ...formidable.

edit: The GK also has a much higher defense value. Please do not try to argue that this equates to immortality or any such nonsense.

This is indeed not "equivalent" to immortality, but it's definitely a feather in the cap of somebody taking the GK route instead. Sure, it's not a substitute for immortality, but the lower chassis cost, combined with the lower path cost, will let you afford better defensive paths on top of that.

All you need is immortal naked SC viability, the path boost above the minimum munchkin design is unnecessary and beside the point. The synergy between immortality and dominion for ermor (who recuits troops independent of scales) is simply too great.

As I said, you should be proud you found a way to minimax break the game, but that doesn't mean it should be permitted indefinitely.


Rabe the Rebutter

[ May 03, 2004, 23:39: Message edited by: rabelais ]