OOBs way out of whack?

[Mobhack]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPS-43
pps-43
which states the sight settings were 100 and 200 yards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_submachine_gun
M3
Which states the sights were fixed at 100 yards (so harrasing fire at 150 would be fine)

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/PSharpe1.html Thompson

which is a good technical article on the Thompson

The accuracy of the sub-machine gun is decidedly interesting. File records of the Auto-Ordnance firm indicate that in a Mann rest test fired at Hartford, Conn., May 2, 1921, the mean radius using a Remington Standard 230 grain bullet at 100 yards ran 1.89 inches. At 200 yards mean radius was 4.92 inches; at 300 yards 7.63 inches at 400 yards it increased to 18.31; while at 500 yards it jumped to 20.45 inches. Accordingly, one can assume that the accuracy of the more or less spent bullets is quite uncontrolled at the longer ranges. This writer suggests that the effective range of the weapon is under 300 yards.

At 200 yards,, using the gun from the sitting position, I experienced no difficulty in placing deliberate fire in "killing" portions of the standard Colt Police Pistol "silhouette" target. It is safe to state that an officer could readily "get his man" at that range. which is well out of normal revolver range.

And I have fired the Sterling on the ranges, and was quite happy with it at 75-100 yards, at 150-200 yards it would be fine to keep heads down. I would still rather have the SLR, avoid the GPMG (heavy! + a beast to clean!), but did a spell as platoon radio operator, and having to hump that beach, was quite happy to have the stubby little subby - as it was nice and small (esp with the stock folded up) and light.

So, 150 yards or so is fine for SMGs in the game, especially since we have to realise that the infantry can be assumed to be anywhere in their hex, or to move to the area in question in the game turn if needed, so allowing grenades & satchel charges to be delivered to the next hex, ant-tank assaults and so on. The men in a section are not formed up in a close-order drill formation shoulder to shoulder at the centre point of the hex (even if the icon looks crowded at the figure/ground scale) - but are assumed to be tactically positioned throughout the area.

(And the original game did not allow you to actually enter a hex containing enemy, remember! - melee code is our addition, way back in sp2ww2 days).

Oh - and the code (not original SSI code, so I can mention details of that! ! ) gives SMG a small accuracy boost at 1-2 hexes over other WT_PRIME_INF weapon classes (Firer is an SMG is determined by weapon type==WT_PRIME_INF and hekill>2 and weapon range<5. if i were actually to write a new game from the ground up, I would have WC_SMG, WC_RIFLE and so on .. would make determining exactly what the truck was shooting much easier in the code than a single WT_PRIME_INF class etc).

SMG sections - I use them in my USSR campaign core, but as a back-up to the normal rifle companies, as tank riders and only as the lead in city fights, woods, etc. If you can keep the fight under 4 hexes, they are fine, but even with the LMG, if caught in the open by rifle enemy at >SMG range(not hard), they do not fare too well. Therefore, I usually upgrade one of the 3 sections in each platoon to a rifle (or LMG) section after 1-2 battles, to give some ranged fire to the platoon.

Cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobhack
Very interesting but can you show me where tank desent teams armed with LMGs come from? Ive yet to find a tank desent TOE that has anything else than ppsh.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Marek_Tucan]

I'd say all tank dessant TOEs present are inherently inaccurate as tank dessant units were formed ad hoc, though preferably with SMG infantry. Now SMG squads were atleast supposed to have LMG, and I doubt very much they'd leave it behind. After all they had to count with situations where tank ios killed or otherwise away.

[Mobhack]

If that is your world view of tank riders, then limit yourself to the versions with SMG only, then. Your choice.

Of course, the Russians were just like any other army - and experienced troops would "aquire" non-establishment weapons, like the mass use of captured panzerfausts.

Since I have actually served in an army unit, I place very little value on any "official" TO&E chart. However, some "chartered accountant" type wargamers bow down and worship at the altar of the TO&E chart. Hint - the things are a guide to what some bureaucrats thought should apply, and not to the reality of actual units, especially those in combat.

Now, of course, you could always enter "soviet tank rider LMG" into the well-known search engine called "google" and get results like Kursk
where an SMG company is shown to have 9 LMG, which is 3 per platoon, and with 3 sections that is 1 per section. Which is, funnily enough - what we provide as one of the alternatives.

You have the Mobhack editor, so you can make your own OOBS to fit your particular views, should you feel the need. If you do not like the sections with LMG, do not buy them, and if you are obsessed by a Soviet AI using them against you and swinging the entire battle because 10 elements of 200 or so have these wonder-waffen, then by all means, use Mobhack (its not hard) - and give them an X3 code. Mobhack allows you to have it your way.

Andy

[Deputy]

pdoktar said:
Well, as I said I know how 9x19, 7,62x39 and 7,62x54 acts, when fired full auto. I have no personal experience of .45ACP. However here is a good thread about WW2 SMGs and their uses in different armies, by guys who know or have fired those guns, maybe not in WW2 but later.

Presenting again our beloved tanknet: http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php...hinegun&st=120

And from personal experince I can guarantee that the Suomi SMG 9x19 was very easy to handle with 6-9 round automatic bursts and regularly landed on target with surprising accuracy, that can not be said from same distance with an AK or finnish M62 7,62x39 on similar full auto bursts.

Also consider this: if you drop one SMG range to 2hexes from three, there will be twenty guys complaining from different reasons that why this gun outranges the other, and have about million arguments why it actually should be the other way round. The developers would probably like to see to drop individual weapon designations and use only a generic SMG, rifle or self-loading rifle or carbine. However this will not happen, because there would be again ten oob makers saying that they want to present their Thompson, M16 or whatever for some reason (reality) to the game, so the individual weapon names will stand.

If you drop all SMGs to range 1hex, SMG-armed formations will suffer heavily. They will be gunned down from 2+ hex range by any regular rifle squad and will be mostly useless in this game system. My opinion comes from 5 years of gaming experience with SPWW2 / SPMBT system.

edited for spelling

Can't really compare a submachinegun cartridge (aka a PISTOL cartridge) performance with an assault rifle (7.62X39) or full size rifle (7.62X54R). An assault rifle mainly uses full auto fire for close combat where the targets are densely located and not under heavy cover. A full size battle rifle, say an FN/FAL, using a full power 7.62 NATO cartridge is USELESS in full auto. After the first shot the weapon rapidly climbs to where by the third shot you are shooting at birds.
On full auto an AK is range-restricted simply because of the increased recoil (due to increased power AND lethality) of the round. A 7.62X54R is a rifle or medium machinegun cartridge and has FAR more recoil. Yes, a 9MM in a heavy submachinegun is controllable. But you are NOT going to get "rifle-like" accuracy out of it. The barrel is way too short (usually around 10 inches) and the smaller length, even with a folding stock extended, simply doesn't lend itself to good accuracy potential. I would imagine a whole platoon armed with submachineguns and firing them like mortars is going to cause the enemy to immediately take cover. But if they are firing those submachineguns from a range so far away that they aren't coming close to the people they are shooting at, then they are in for some bad mojo in the form of artillery fire.

Will submachingun formations suffer if I drop it to one hex...most definitely. But that's a lot closer to reality than giving them long range killing power via some mortar-like firing of their weapons. I doubt very much any submachinegun users fired their weapons at long rifle ranges (over 100 meters) in real life anyway. Not unless they were suicidal and wanted to give their positions away. It's the same thing as having an M4 Sherman fire at it's maximum range at a Tiger tank and then expect it to survive the encounter when the Tiger can far outrange and outpower it. I am simply forcing the submachinegun units to be used as they were intended to be used in real life. If I am taking away some amazingly unrealistic abilities and advantages, then so be it. Those formations will just have to deal with it
I will use submachinegun units in urban or heavily forested combat where they won't be instantly visible. They will just have to use stealth to accomplish their mission instead of depending on an unrelistic advantage from their weapons.

If you REALLY want to know how the Thompson fires, I suggest you head over to the location where people who still own and shoot them post...

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forum...hp?showforum=3

Dep

[Deputy]

chuckfourth said:
Hi pdoktar
For my experience I have fired the f1 which is prety much the sten and when you pull the trigger and the big fat bolt luches forward I can tell you when it hits the bullet the gun wants to jump out of your hands. The muzzle then proceeds to climb rapidly, there is hardly any point aiming. Training is to lean into the weapon yell and fire. In short its a dog, handy in a house no doubt.
Im sure most other SMGs perform much better.
Marek mentions harrassing fire as a justification for a long SMG range but LMGs ect can also indulge in harrassing fire past their effective range but I think this isnt modeled for them and so shouldnt be for SMGs either. Actually I think dropping the range of all SMGs from 3 to 2 hexes would give more "realistic" play.
Im not sure if there are other SMG formations about but as for disadvantaging the tank riders dont forget they do have a tank to provide long range support.
While on the subject of tank riders I think it would be a good idea if the tank riders were in the same alpha group as the tanks like say panzergrenadiers, ie a1-a3 are tanks and a4-a6 are tank riders.
Also soviet formation unit 063 has a LMG which I believe tank riders didnt have. not sure if they came with anti tank mines of molotov cocktails either, these are antitank weapons and they do after all have a (several) tank(s) with them to take care of other tanks. I thought they were famous for being trained in and armed with just one weapon (ppsh). ie they are there to protect the tanks from infantry.
Best Regards Chuck.

Chuck: Your experience with the Sten mirrors my experiece with the M1A1 Thompson. For close-in house-to-house fighting where targets are up close or may be densely packed, it's great. But othereise, it's like one man trying to accurately use a fire hose set to full power. The "leaning-into" style you describe is EXACTLY the right way to fire a subgun. As a matter of fact, when I fired the M1A1 at the range, I took that stance and the range instructor immediately commented "you must have fired this gun before". Of course, I had . Only I had fired the 1928A1 version. I will say they are great fun to shoot (as long as you aren't paying for the ammo). I also fired the M3 Grease Gun when I was with the 3rd Armored Cav in Ft. Lewis, Wa.
It was a bit lighter in weight than the Thompson, but still not something I'd call "accurate" by any stretch. I am going to try reducing the range to 2 and then 1 hex to see how this affects gameplay and realism.

Dep

[thatguy96]

Deputy said:
M1928A1 Thompson in Viet Nam. M1A1 at a gun range. And they are NOT identical. The 1928A1 has a much higher cyclic rate.

I am curious as to the circumstances of your use of a M1928A1 in Southeast Asia.

[Deputy]

Marek_Tucan said:

I recommend re-reading my post. Harrassing fire (in the case I mentioned, ie KP M/31) was for ranges up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at single opponents up to 300 meters (6 hexes). 100 meters was for controlled burst fire. While you cannot switch from one mode to another in SP engine, I'd say range of 150 meters (at cost of almost non-existant accuracy in-game) is quite justified.

I did some reading on the M31 after you mentioned it. Very impressive!!! However, I think harassing fire out to 500 meters is being WAY too generous. Other than keeping the enemy awake at night (until he calls in artillery on your heads) and giving away your position, there is NO WAY the 9MM cartridge is going to shoot that far and hit anything. From what I have been able to find out, the maximum EFFECTIVE RANGE of the M31 is less than 200 meters. Personally, I think that is being VERY generous, considering the capabilities of the 9MM FMJ ammunition and the cyclic rate of the blowback-operated gun (750-900RPM).

Dep

[Deputy]

thatguy96 said:

I am curious as to the circumstances of your use of a M1928A1 in Southeast Asia.

I was there in 1968-1969, 2nd Btn, 60th Regt., 9th Infantry Division. We had various weapons assigned to locations in our forward base camp for use when we were there for bunker and tower guard duty. They included M14 rifles with automatic selector switches and the normal M60 and M2 HB machineguns. At the entrance/front gate to our camp we had two Thompson 1928A1 Subguns. At that time the M16 rifle was still suffering all kinds of problems with jamming, so it was thought the Thompson, which had proved to be quite reliable on full auto, would be better served at that location. I believe we bought them from a local ARVN unit that was still using WW2 era weapons. I was lucky enough to be selected to make sure they were in proper firing order so I got a goodly amount of range time. During the Tet offensive I spent one unpleasant evening up all night blasting away with the Tommygun. It never malfunctioned the whole time.

Dep

[narwan]

Deputy, you are consistently mistaken the ability to fire a SMG over distance with chance of hitting something. Despite plenty of indication both by actual users of these types of weapons and historical accounts of their use you keep to your own strict view.

Please understand that this game is a model of reality and not reality itself and as such has to incorporate many different aspects. One of these is that rounds fired by smg's can travel quite some distance and still do harm. Hitting the specific target you aimed at is something else entirely. The game gives smg's a range below the distance the rounds can travel and do harm, so it's already limiting them more than 'reality'. And at more than 1 hex range they are inaccurate in the game.
So if you want to be taken seriously here, do the work. Set up test scenario's and show us that smg's consistently do too much damage against targets at ranges of 100m or more. Make sure you include rifles and automatic rifles in your tests to show the relative effectiveness of smg's.

As a playtester for this game I've done plenty of those sorts of tests myself. And I must say, I recognize very little of what you claim is wrong with the game.