US Sniper rifle???

[Deputy]

Mobhack said:

Nope, they are wargames.

Now, I have worked on computer-based train drivers simulators - for the London Underground (Northern Line I think it was), Hong Kong Lantau line etc. These happen to have a real drivers cab, with circuit breakers that can be removed and so on, with a CGI view of the track. They ran in real-time, and have a physics model behind them, for brake dynamics and so forth. The trainers can script or inject real mishaps, and score the driver on the responses.

I have run a section and a platoon in the field in the TA, and have been attached to Co HQ as an officer cadet to learn the ropes. This game has nothing to do with the real-world activity of running any sort of military formation, unlike the train driver simulator, which is used to train real drivers in their real-world tasks. Like real flight simulators are used to teach piloting procedures, or the "pro" version of Steel beasts is used by some militaries.

The various real-time squad level games are still simply that - they do not teach any sort of useful procedures, and are really only an exercise in "buttonology". A game of paintball will teach you more real fieldcraft than any "squad level" press-F8 to throw the grenade stuff.

Civilian wargames have a role in teaching interested civilians something about tactics in general. They are used as such by some militaries, to teach the general concept of tactics in say officer training schools. But real military-grade simulations will concentrate on what is to the casual civilian "boring" stuff, like proper voice radio procedures, formulation of orders to that militaries standards, and so on. These military simulations can be done with telephones and radios in barracks, or out in the field as exercises, with or without real troops.

Cheers
Andy

Just to veer off for a second...but why can't I change the start date for US snipers in the OOB editor? It stays at 1-30 no matter if I hit F12 or save with the checkmark. When I change it and it LOOKS like it was changed successfully, I go back in and it's back to 1-30
I was trying to change it to Feb 1943.

[Mobhack]

Just to veer off for a second...but why can't I change the start date for US snipers in the OOB editor? It stays at 1-30 no matter if I hit F12 or save with the checkmark. When I change it and it LOOKS like it was changed successfully, I go back in and it's back to 1-30
I was trying to change it to Feb 1943.

You have apparently saved the current record's changes to the copy of the OOB currently held in RAM memory.

Did you also remember to save your edited OOB to disk, using the save button on the load/save tab, or File/Save Current file menu item?.

Edits made to the local RAM copy will not be finalised until you overwrite the actual OOB file on disk.

Andy

[RVPERTVS]

Deputy said:
Anyway, I found a more acceptable definition of simulation...
A simulation is an imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process. The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviours of a selected physical or abstract system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation

Given the choice, I'll take that definition of simulation and leave the games to children.

Dep

Deputy: Please take note of the definition of "Military Simulation" contained pagedwn the very same source you are invoking, I quote:



"Military simulations:also known informally as war games , are models in which theories of warfare can be tested and refined without the need for actual hostilities. They exist in many different forms, with varying degrees of realism . In recent times, their scope has widened to include not only military but also political and social factors.[7] Whilst many governments make use of simulation, both individually and collaboratively, little is known about the model's specifics outside professional circles."



So the problem is not in the definition but in the degree of realism you´re looking for in a "war-game" (not only children but even profesional armies refer to them as such) you don´t have to play it if you don´t like it.

IMHO the difference between those terms resides in the level of realism they are known for, thus short answer is: SP is a "war-game" with the level of realism (simulation) you might get out of a BnLv miniature tabletop game and indirectly depicts the real deal, if you´re looking for a "simulation" which is nothing more than indeed a "war-game" with a higher effort into realism try SB like Andy said, I understand that´s the one the US Military actually uses for training purposes, you can even play that game with an optional replica of the M1A2 and Leo controllers, that´s a simulation "War-game" to me, because it remains a wg.

SP could never be considered from the pile of "simulations" simply because of it´s "war-game" level of realism, I´m talking about the fact that it plays in turns and that you can´t move 2 units at the same time, I see no point in demanding scroupulos realism in a game like this

Even with all the sniper rifles tuned up to te point you recomend the game wouldn´t become a "simulation", simply because it couldn´t be one given it´s gamey limitations. Love it or Leave it.

Just my $0.02
Robert

[PatG]

Deputy said:<snippage>

Just to veer off for a second...but why can't I change the start date for US snipers in the OOB editor? It stays at 1-30 no matter if I hit F12 or save with the checkmark. When I change it and it LOOKS like it was changed successfully, I go back in and it's back to 1-30
I was trying to change it to Feb 1943.

F12/check only commits your changes to the OOB in memory, you have to save the OOB in memory to disk for the change to stick. Note that you must commit all changes on one weapon, unit or formation page before moving to another or all changes on that page will be lost.

The process:
Open the OOB
Find your sniper
Change to 2 43
Commit changes F12 or Checkmark
Click Load/Save tab
Click Save to overwrite the existing OOB on disk or Save As to put into the custom folder. I would suggest you put any changed OOBs into a custom folder so you don't break PBEM compatibility. You can restore OOBs using the OOB management tool.
Click Exit
Re-open Mobhack, check the dates and you should be good.

[Brummbar]

Hey Deputy, since your so smart, what kind of sniper rifle is my avatar holding and who do you think it's aimed at? From the sound of it you are kinda like the pimple on the *** of winSP. You just won' go away.

[Marek_Tucan]

Every commercial "simulation" is just a game. Even if you take a look at the very complex Il-2 Shurmovik series, which do stand on a firm basis of huge physical model and try to get as real as possible, it's still a game. Bombers still have Magic Otto rear gunners, and you can do all sorts of "unreal" things and maneuvers just because you know that you risk nothing but score (aonother slash at the reality). You can set MG convergence to any value you like, whereas in reality there were limits imposed by construction. Most of all, since it's a game, you seldom experience say smashing numerical superiority of the enemy while playing Germans. If your mission is to intercept bombers, most of times you'll get four bombers with four-craft escorts. Yet, it is a Simulation Game, often shortend to just Simulation. And very good at that simulating part.

And just a few final words to the sniper issue...
1) What was modus operandi of that real schooled snipers? Build a nest carefully, then wait for three days until the correct targets presents itself, then one shot and get out of there? You might notice this is not the thing Sniper units in SPWW2 do. Snipers in SPWW2 serve in direct support of other tactical units, in an intense firefight and the likes. Today, ths function is called "Marksman", back then, there was no such distinction (anway, such distinction exist only on the West, after all Dragunov SVD is by its function and distribution due to today's terminology marksman rifle intended for platoon's marksmen, but the"S" stands for "Snaiperskaya"). Most of times warning cry "Sniper" arose, the enemy was just sitting somewhere with his ordinary Mauser even without optical scope and firing at relatively close range, just accurately and unexpectedly.

2) I repeat, what did USMC Sniper School use in 1942 if there were no Sniper sifles? Mounting the scope isn't THAT hard. Russians used PTRD and PTRS anti-tank rifles withs scopes, USMC sniper in Vietnam did use scoped M2HB. Hunters all over the world used scopes mounted on various rifles, and in the US the hunter culture was quite strong (and still is), did all of the hunters becoming soldiers suddenly forget how to mount a scope and how to use it? In USSR they didn't so I find it hard to believe they did in US.
The largest problem Russians had with creating sniper variant of Mosin was shape of charging handle, it had to be changed from straight to bent in order not to interfere with the scope - Kar98k, SMLE and M1903 all had charging handles bent downward from the get go. After all that's reason scoped SVT-40 was used so much in the Red Army, it was able to mount scope unhindered compared to stadard Mosin. The argument that "US had lack of rifles, therefore there can be no snipers" is misguiding, Germans and Russians both also had lack of rifles - that's why Germans had to issue trophy weapons to whole formations and why Russians (esp. in the beginning) sent to combat units where unarmed soldiers were expected to get weapon from fallen comrades. But it didn't stop them from having snipers(called so, mostly acting as marksmen - just like Sniper units in SPWW2). Just as the Russians weren't stopped by fact that sniper Mosin variant began production in 1941. And as Brit-weapons-armed units weren't stopped by the fact special sniper variant of SMLE appeared just during the war.

So... I don't view the absence/presence of unit called "Sniper" and performing marksman's duties in US OOB as such a dire insult to reality. Definitely not compared to say Maus.


Btw. Mauser Kar98k sniper variant was produced since 1941, I guess Germany shouldn't have snipers prior this date as well... Unless it was, as in every other army, so that the use of scoped rifles and calls for making one that would be specialised for scope mounting was widespread enough to get noticed by high command and procurement.You need snipers first to get demands for sniper rifles.

[Charles22]

Deputy said:

Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War, you will see that with input from users of the sim, it CAN be made much better. The developers of this game seem to think it has reached perfection, even though there are numerous people doing fixes to the OOB. I haven't seen this much negativity about user input since the days of the HIND helicopter simulation. Make an honest mistake in a comment and a wiseacre mod keeps throwing it back in your face OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Yet they REFUSE to see the errors present in the game. Or they blow them off as "not having a major effect on gameplay". because it doesn't affect the way THEY play the game. Unbelieveable.
SP:WAW is no longer getting support from the original design team. But people are so loyal to that sim that they are constantly coming out with mods that make it more and more authentic as well as more enjoyable to play. As far as I can see, WinSPWW2 is at a dead end. NO input is welcome, whether good or bad, unless the person giving the input meets with their "approval". The mods and designers are so thin-skinned that ANY criticism, even if there are mistakes in the criticism, is ridiculed or dismissed outright. The forum at SP:WAW is active to this day with helpful posts and comments from users and mods. This forum is all but dead. The mods actually seem to discourage any changes because they think WinSPWW2 has reached some kind of "perfection".
Sniper rifles is just ONE SMALL example I picked out from MANY problems in the sim. But the mods have intimidated or discouraged pretty much ALL input from users. So be it. The best thing you can say about WinSPWW2 is they got it running good on WinXP. That's about it.

Dep

Yes, they are being a bit thin-skinned, but you are asking for it by making somewhat flamboyant remarks when finding what you think are problems. You need to state things with less flare to it; more on the "you might want to check this out" line of thinking.

As far as SPWAW goes, don't even get me started. I used to play that game which is quite comparable, and that game of a couple of years ago, since I haven't played it since then, falls short in my view. Try this for a start, though they may not be issues for everyone. How about picking out a campaign as germany for the war, and start off with maybe a map with 80 hexes high (not too bad)? Then, the next battle is 20 hexes. Is that garbage or what? It used to not be that way. Then, to make matters worse, some idiot decided to complain, I suppose, that the visibility was too great in his opinion, which of course cutting it down benefitted the allies, so they did that. Anyway, you're often fighting battles with only 10-20 hex visibility IN SUMMER!!!!! Is that garbage or what? Somebody would inevitably tell you that you could edit it (like loading every battle of the campaign everytime you started one) somehow. I tried it and it didn't work for me, but let's say it did. Why should I have to alter it practically every stinking battle for some thunderstorm in the middle of the night fanatic, when they had it not too bad in the first place? Realize I'm not complaining to them now about this, because I found something, so it's not exactly like my flamboyance in this case isn't heeding my own advice. Anyway, this game let's me do both adjustments VERY EASILY, and the game defaults temselves are done so well I don't even have to do it, as it's VERY agreeable. What else? Oh yeah, I can have EVERY battle be the exact size I want it, instead of the ridiculous 20 hex varieties I bumped into far too often in the last version of SPWAW I played.

Whatever you do, heed this advice that follows very well. One day you will probably tire of one or more of the things I mentioned here about SPWAW and then you will want relief from them by going to this game, and that's exactly what you will get there. Just remember that, because some of the details of SPWAW have your attention right now, but some of the greater control, and in some cases less control, of SPWW2 (such as the fighting during the AI turn) will start calling to you. I am actually a bit curious how SPWAW is doing these days, but I don't see the huge problem of the map and visibility issues being adjusted or corrected anytime soon. I did ask to see if they could do something about the user being able to adjust the map size, before SPWW2 even did it, it bothered me so much, but they said they didn't know how, or it couldn't be done, etc.

[Charles22]

Mobhack said:
From the Game Guide, right up front in the "What is WinSPMBT" section:

This is a wargame. It is not a "sim", you are the only one who keeps calling it so. If you want a tank sim - try Steel Beasts. It's used by militaries, in the "Pro" version. It apparently has a physics model for shell flight etc. And as explained before, for the sort of micro-detail between personal weapon types you seem to want, then there are real-time "squad level" games out there that may be regarded as sims, but I think they sell themselves as games rather than as simulations, per se.

So this is a wargame - a computer version of the 1/300 tabletop rules with micro-armour and model villages etc. at batallion level. Funnily enough - rule sets for such (e.g. WRG and Challenger, Firefly and so forth) - use generic "Rifle", "SMG", "LMG", "MMG", while differentiating between say a 6 pounder ATG and a 50mm L60, just like we do. And only one "sniper rifle".. Only skirmish level platoon level or less wargame rulesets will maybe have individual different personal weapons statistics.

However, if you feel you need dozens different individually crafted sniper rifles to fit your perceptions of reality in the game, then you have the Mobhack data editor at your disposal. You can hand-craft your own OOBS to suit yourself, but remember that there are a maximum of 250 weapons in each OOB!.

As explained before - differentiating between different sniper rifles, or smgs etc for that matter, will make zero actual difference in the game, bar adding unnecessary complication in the OOBs. And also it will use up valuable weapons slots in each OOB for what is essentially the same item. We already differentiate marksmen (plain rifle), basic snipers (sniper rifle) through to more advanced ones, by using units with different Fire Control and Range Finder values as has been previously explained in this thread.

Cheers
Andy

Deputy: Keep what he just said above very well in mind. Both SP reditions have their limits. Would you rather have a Panther with a different gun, ar additional MG's, or an additional sniper unit? I will take more variations to armor any day, and both games are named for armor anyway. I would expect infantry weapons to take somethign of a back seat, but in any acse the main point is they have only so much space to make units. If somebody makes Combat Leader, which Matrix caved on, now there you might be talking the possibility of great detail more across the board, but htese old games are fairly limited.

[Charles22]

Mobhack said:
The best direct-fire anti-sniper bullet weapon in the game is another sniper. (Not a section with a sniper rifle in slot 4 ). Snipers enjoy no special advantages vs another specialist sniper, bar small size making initial hitting a tad less than a full sized section.

Next best is an MG unit class weapon, esp if firing from beyond the snipers own rifle range. MG unit classes have a few less problems with the snipers size, and if they miss, usually it is to the adjacent hex, so the splash will cause some "S" anyway (and share the joy with any neighbours he has, too! ).

Andy

What's the difference with the srifle in slot 4? I think there is a experience or morale check that is made for it to fire, which in slot 1 wouldn't be the case, but what else? I was wondering how well that works for the 10 man, or maybe it's 12 man brandenberger unit.

[Charles22]

Deputy said:

I'd take the details as far as I possibly could. And I WILL.
And the fact remains that there WERE NO US Sinper rifles in the US inventory until the 1903A4 showed up. And the 1903A4 was ordered into production by Remington by Production Order S-1066 on 18 January 1943. Anyone who knows anything about manufacturing will know that the rifle didn't magically appear in rifleman's hands on 19 January 1943.
The first rifles completed were delivered in February 1943.
The US HAD NO sniper training program as some other countried (notably Germany) had.

There's a fascinating discussion of snipers at this location:
http://www.1944game.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2285

Dep...doesn't play "games".

Haven't you ever heard of snipers in the Civil War? What makes you think the US Army would drop them inbetween that time?