Helo News game related.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Ah but look what the table on the left of ref. 2 says under "Benefits" Item #3. The USN didn't name it but what it is APKWS-II. Raytheon is saying the benefit of TALON is better then APKWS-II. As I've stated the USA dropped the program years ago and the USN picked up the ball and ran with it without a program name change.
Also from ref. 2 "This LGR is a precision weapon that exceeds the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System II (APKWS II) specifications. It fills the critical operational capability gap between unguided rockets and guided heavy anti-tank missiles." - on TALON.
And as I posted the TALON as per your refs it is indeed a RAYTHEON product. But also as I've posted for years and recently on APKWS-II it is a BAE product.
But to be sure so I'm not confused...
http://www.baesystems.com/product/BA...3Dhabtfjjbj_89

And nothing said about the AH-56 how .

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Good point on Raytheon vs BAE, that's probably the major difference between Talon and APKWS-II.
No doubt there are other differences but they're probably insignificant in WinSPMBT terms.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Nothing new here, transferred from the below Thread for my own purposes.
V/R
Pat

Fallout Re: Helicopter armor
Things not talked about...
1. Using helos like tanks you need to terrain mask them where you can. I'm willing to bet a 1/3 of the players go charging in. The assault aspect is more Cold War then anything where NATO had a distinct disadvantage in numbers. More finesse is needed in the modern battlefield.

2. Like on map arty, don't hover or stay in the same area more then a couple of turns. If you do you deserve what you get...shot down or damaged normally. And to follow through, your arty will come under fire normally by mortars first and the big guns next for the same reason. AI hates on map arty.

3. To the main topic as started...Look-down TI/GSR is much more effective than "look at" TI/GSR. Height of eye is a huge advantage. In my world if I'm moving my helo in a "search mode" (Segments of say 6-10 hexes.) where I suspect enemy are, and it comes upon the enemy unit(s), especially if moving, the helo should have the advantage. It is after all actively seeking contact and the "finger is on the trigger". If you fly across the battlefield then as is in the game your both in that "ah poop" mode as is now.

4. Helos for about the last 20yrs. or so have more redundant systems on board, also more recently within the last maybe ten years your seeing these systems protected by armor as well. Mi-35is protected against 35mm or 37mm rounds the AH-1Z is protected against 23mm rounds. Transport helos have add on armor plating added when operating in combat zones (Belly area.) plus what I've already noted above.

5. Defensively...They are quieter, faster and more maneuverable, have as much EW as a jet in many cases with full defensive suites to include chaff and flares such as "Angel Fire" this includes transports. Don't believe me, I'll provide all the pics you want upon request of course.

6. I'm not asking to see my helo going spinning around the screen, but crew survivability has always been an issue with me here. All helo pilots learn to auto-rotate their birds and generally can safely land them. In urban or mountainous terrain the odds go down significantly however, this is better then the zero chance they have now for crews and passengers, though not helos the point can still be made, a bridge in France comes to mind right now known as "Pegasus" if you'd read the history it would support my point here. This is to my mind a major issue, truth is many crews live to fly another day and troops survive to fight. The crew issue goes to experience level of crews directly not unlike tank crews in general.

7. Attack Helos: Save slots and alot them as in real life. I can think of at least 10-15 countries this can be applied. You want them playing the "big boys" then you should pay for them as the real "big boys" use them-in pairs. Developed countries since Vietnam have flown attack helos in pairs to be mutual supporting for over-watch and targeting purposes. What's to be gained besides saving some slots? Well maybe the player will take better care of them if it costs more to use them. And for the player (And AI.) well after they pay for them they can still use them how ever they want. Not much downside if you think about it. But if you pay attention to the AI's general use of Attack Helos, it tends to keep them paired and mutually supporting each, based on my years of playing against the AI.

8. RTB part of the game. Some minor tweaking before they do it maybe. Just "freezing" and running due to suppression not so sure. I think from what I've read and just in general as a thought better to go home with empty (Or near empty.) weapons racks. As the game operates now though it seems more experienced crews don't RTB as soon as less experienced crews. Is this a faulty observation on my part?

9. Finally they are not invincible. A hit to the tail rotor that causes damage to it, you won't be in the air long, and it will be harder to auto-rotate down. It is for instance felt that the crew of "Super Six" could've survived the RPG hit they took but what killed them was the crash site in a narrow alley and wall they ended up hitting.

Auto rotation can be accomplished at altitude ref. provided on technique and video shows a S-92 Mil. transport at max. payload weight doing it.
http://helicopterflight.net/autorotation.htm
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...7400CD7C6DFA5E

My thoughts for what their worth.

Regards,
Pat
Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; 01-12-14 at 03:23 AM..

[Suhiir]

1. Even in the Cold War only the suicidal charged in. Think Vietnam, they flew high getting to the LZ area because the NVA/VC AA was virtually nonexistent then low as low as possible near the LZ.

6. No way the current game can model crew survivability for helos.

7. ALWAYS buy Attack Helo's in pairs. Use placed well back to draw fire while the other waits till it's safe to pop-up and fire. When one is out of ammo swap roles.

8. Again the current game model won't allow damaged helos to do anything but run for home.

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

8. Again the current game model won't allow damaged helos to do anything but run for home.

Which is pretty much what they will do in real life, as shown by the (in)famous incident during OIF. Any more than light damage and an attack helo is a mission kill. The same incident also showed what knowledgeable people already knew: even modern attack helos can be damaged by rifle caliber fire. The tail rotor is the most obvious vulnerability, but it's not the only one (if it was, everybody would be using Kamov style dual main rotors).

Basically, when marketing material says that an attack helo is protected against caliber X projectiles, it means that the armored areas can withstand a couple of hits by said caliber HE shells (or API in case of =< 14.5mm machine guns) and the aircraft can still fly home. It does NOT mean AFV style protection, which means that you can fire a large number of rounds at the vehicle and expect the armor to stop them all no problems.

[gila]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

8. Again the current game model won't allow damaged helos to do anything but run for home.

Which is a very good reason to never buy them,Costly AT Helos rarely survive the battle, game wise an unwise purchase,but those into them can get some early kills then the man pads or stray mmg get them retreating or knocked down

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by gila

Which is a very good reason to never buy them,Costly AT Helos rarely survive the battle, game wise an unwise purchase,but those into them can get some early kills then the man pads or stray mmg get them retreating or knocked down

Until you have large areas to cover on big maps. Not much cop on postage stamp battlefields, invaluable as the battlespace expands.

"Attack" helos are simply extremely fast tank destroyers that can relocate within your own side of the map as desired, and return to the ammo park to resupply tout suite. Think of the WW2 M18 hellcat, but turbocharged. Or naval battle cruisers - can dish it out but cannot take it.

What they aren't good for is going beyond your own front line, unless the opponent is primitive - and even then its a bit of a gamble if you aren't super cautious and don't have scout choppers to advance along the proposed route.

So stay well back in your zone, look for AAA weapons and kill those with other means (while taking cover yourself) if they show themselves (A shedload of arty usually does that trick).

If there is no credible enemy AAA - then you can it up high and see for miles while dominating the battlefield.

If the enemy is infantry-based then scout choppers with decent (TI) vision are better. Use to spot for the shedloads of arty you brought along - scout choppers are arty spotters.

Transport helos are brilliant for relocating leg infantry sideways in your own zone, on a large map, using terrain masking. But again any kamikaze charge into the enemy's rear can end in tears. Transport helos are super-fast trucks, is all.

[whdonnelly]

Not sure speed is everything, but there is (or will be, maybe)this

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the...51839/+barrett

[Suhiir]

I play with large maps because I like some maneuver in my battles (by myself and the AI) and I like to have 3-4 turns before I run into the opposition (and the naps are still small enough AI infantry forces get to the battle ... admittedly usually after most of their armor/APCs are dead, but they do take part). I also set the AI NON-tank heavy because I prefer more realistic force compositions. Yeah, at a key point armor should, and would, be concentrated to make a break thru, but I'm not playing scenarios where I'm representing a small part of a MUCH larger battle.

I find that a pair of scout and two pair of attack helos are invaluable, but then I also buy a LOT less armor then most folks (one platoon per battalion sized MEU) and an Attack helo is comparable to a tank in terms of point cost. So helos make up for my lack of tanks. This is of course problematic vs higher-tech opponents (with VIRSS and to an extent reactive "armor") but that's why I always buy ammo resupply units.

I also use transport helos regularly (tho I'll admit I've upgraded all but the very early (pre 1960s) models to 1 armor) and find it useful to drop an infantry company on, or near, some hard to reach bit of terrain.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The next two are updates as well. For the first on the APKWS II, I have already taken for action of adding to the Jets and Planes list the Jordanian gunships and the helos adding the TIGER AH's with the new rocket pods (Note: These are the Forges de Zeebrugge’s FZ90 pods already in the game on the French + others we added a couple of years ago.) mounted.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...d-phase-02193/

The next will precipitate a change also for the Gulf States OOB (In this regard for the UAE.) to not only add the TALON but I'm willing to bet the APACHES as well. That's right, the TALON will go to the UAE before the USA gets them. The UAE is a co-developer of the TALON rocket.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...entries-03157/

I'll be outta here for a week to reward for my "Dr./Nurse" CINCLANTHOME during my recovery and 28 years of putting up with my cra...poop . See you guys have been lucky it's ONLY been almost 7 years for you...and I heard that !!
Have a great week/weekend!!

Regards,
Pat