Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.

[Unwise]

Just a data point:

I think I am typical of the new crop of Dom2 players. Having never heard of Dominions or Shrapnel games, I read the glowing review in CGW this month... and still wouldn't have bought it, not with Civ3: Conquests still warm in my hard drive. I read the cool three-page battle report in the back of that same magazine and that convinced me to download the demo.

I played the hell out of the demo for a couple days and decided that I would buy the game. Sure, the graphics and sound were terrible, but the game-play more than makes up for it, I figured. So after searching the major on-line retailers to no avail, I finally went to Shrapnel's site and followed the link to the purchase page. Then I nearly choked.

$50 for game with nowhere near the production values as its contemporaries? Ok, it's got top-notch game-play that will no doubt keep me entertained for hours, but so does Civ3 ($40), BF1942 ($30 for the basic game) or KOTOR ($50). Forget it, I said, and shut off the browser in disgust. If I were still young and poor, I probably would have tried to find a "warez" Version somewhere, but I'm too old and rich for that nowadays - it's not as if I couldn't afford the game, it was the principle of the purchase.

I dithered over the decision for a few more days - effectively exhausting the demo - and eventually sucked it up and bought the game. My gaming buddies are still in the "that's CANADIAN dollars, right?" sticker-shock phase. If the game were priced at $40, it'd be a no-brainer for them, but there is something about paying half a C-note that gives people pause.

Anyway, one man's opinion. I paid for it, so how smart can I be?

[PvK]

Originally posted by UNIVAC:
... Blizzard started like a small company programming games for other companies.They started with low budget games.So when we are talking about warcraft 1, dont think about today's Blizzard, think about early 90's Blizzard. Low budget and small team is a poor argument for bad multimedia (gui, graphics, sound). If you cant do it better, look for someone that can help you.

When I wrote "Warcraft", I was responding to your "Warcraft III":

Originally posted by onomastikon:
... Think of Deus Ex I (the attention to detail) or Warcraft III (the cute voices, excellent graphics, extreme customer support (battle.net).) ...

Warcraft III is definitely an expensive project. (And incidentally, its value to me is less than 1/10th that of Dominions 1 - in fact, I have no desire to play Warcraft III at all, because of the yawn-inspiring formulaic and artificial game "design".)

As for Warcraft I, yeah it had a smaller budget than Warcraft III, but I'm sure it also had a reasonable actual amount of money spent developing it, and graphically, I'd say it's rather less appealing than Dominions II. Meanwhile, Warcraft's gameplay is just typical RTS fare (perhaps well-done RTS fare, but personally, bleh to simplistic fakey RTS).

However, I don't have any problem with the Dominions II graphics myself, as my imagination is way better than any computer graphics anyway. The only downside I experience is that it is depressing seeing some others feel the game isn't valuable because it doesn't have better superficial artwork.

Furthermore, notice that it is a lot easier to make pretty graphics for a game with a piddly number of unit types. Even the games with million-dollar art budgets tend to have to limit the number of kinds of character and objects you can meet, because it's very expensive to make each one super-detailed. I'd rather keep the hundreds and hundreds of unit types, with easily-made graphics, than have really pretty graphics of only a few dozen unit types.

I'm sure that if/when Illwinter continues, they'll continue to improve the visuals and so on. The modding tools due out with the first public patch should let Users start helping with modified graphics, if they want to. Meanwhile, I'm quite happy that Illwinter are still more interested in providing the best gameplay rather than trying to improve the graphics.

PvK

[ January 11, 2004, 03:08: Message edited by: PvK ]

[MythicalMino]

Personally, I don't think it is over-priced. Graphics to me is just....something to look at. Many of the graphically superior games that I have played (and wasted my money on) didn't Last 1 week on my pc.

This game, and Space Empires 4 will be on my pc probably till I grow too old to think and just simply fall over and die. Gameplay to me is more important than graphics. I have not had any trouble with Dom2 playing on my pc either, which i cannot say for many other games.

Civ3 costs only 40 bucks, BUT, that is for civ3 and it's first "expansion"....to get what Civ3 should have been at the beginning, you are going to be shelling out another 30 bucks for the Conquest Expansion. Battlefield 1942, i just never liked that one. I do like those types of games (playing Call of Duty like crazy). Call of Duty, I payed 45 dollars for....but even that, i think Dom2 is the better game (if you can compare the two). Warcraft....eh, been there, done that...time to move on. Knights of the Old Republic, i hate rpg's....so....10 dollars would be too high really.

I pre-ordered Dom2, and I have yet to regret it. I pre-ordered Civ3....regretted that until they finally put out the Conquest expansion.

[Fyron]

If you do not have money to invest in decent artwork, keep it crisp and simple. Don't use disturbing backgrounds and such in some of the various game screens. IMO the basic color scheme and pattern of the Dom 2 GUI is actually worse than that of Dom 1...

The only thing worse than flashy graphics is poorly done flashy graphics. At least they provide an option to disable those ridiculous fade effects when various windows pop up and go away...

I pre-ordered Civ3....regretted that until they finally put out the Conquest expansion.

I still regret it... no way in hell I am paying them anything for the other 2/3 of the game I paid 50 dollars for in the first place.

[ January 11, 2004, 08:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[UNIVAC]

Originally posted by PvK:


As for Warcraft I, yeah it had a smaller budget than Warcraft III, but I'm sure it also had a reasonable actual amount of money spent developing it, and graphically

Or maybe a pro graphic artist, not a programmer

Originally posted by PvK:

The only downside I experience is that it is depressing seeing some others feel the game isn't valuable because it doesn't have better superficial artwork.

In gameplay terms, this game is a master piece, but it has hard flaws in other areas.There's a lot of people that looks at games as a whole, not only a part of it.

As an example you have Space Empires IV, low budget game, very small dev team (1 person?), fantastic gameplay, more than correct graphics, and super modable, so if you dont like graphics or units, you can change it to your taste.IMHO illwinter should follow the path of MM, never forgetting gameplay, but improving less important but necessary aspects of the game...and moddability!!

[PvK]

Originally posted by UNIVAC:
...
In gameplay terms, this game is a master piece, but it has hard flaws in other areas.There's a lot of people that looks at games as a whole, not only a part of it.

Sure. Different things are important to different people, and different people have different tastes and standards. Practcally every game ends up with some people who love it and some people who hate it, and most somewhere in between.

As an example you have Space Empires IV, low budget game, very small dev team (1 person?), fantastic gameplay, more than correct graphics, and super modable, so if you dont like graphics or units, you can change it to your taste.IMHO illwinter should follow the path of MM, never forgetting gameplay, but improving less important but necessary aspects of the game...and moddability!!

Sure. They have been. Modding is coming in the next patch, and Doms2 shows an attempt to improve graphics and interface. For academic example, look at the graphics of Space Empires I, II and III. With Space Empires IV, a new artist was brought in. I'd say it's a matter of personal taste whether SE4 or Doms 2 has "better" graphics. Again, I think the Doms 2 graphics are rather good considering the huge numbers of unit types, spells, items, etc. with unique graphics. Effort per item is multiplied by the number of items to get the total amount of work required.

As you say, hopefully once the mod tools are released, some talented fans will sit down and churn out massive amounts of improved images for everything. Meanwhile, I have no problem with the existing images. Sometimes a more abstract representation lends itself better to imagination than a more vivid, detailed or specific one.

PvK

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by PvK:
Again, I think the Doms 2 graphics are rather good considering the huge numbers of unit types, spells, items, etc. with unique graphics. Effort per item is multiplied by the number of items to get the total amount of work required.

I was quite surprised actually when my cousin came in to my room during a battle replay and commented on how good the effects were.

[Unknown_Enemy]

Originally posted by Lord Hammer:
From one wargamer to another...it's a slippery slope Dom2 is .

Indeed.

[Campy]

Low budget is not an issue with me. If a developer can make a great game at low cost and therefore make more profit, fine with me. As for "low production values" (or lower than some other games), then that is somewhat of an issue to me, but is not as important as good gameplay. Doubtless, the interface and graphics do have an impact on this games ability to reach a broader market, but are not critical to me.

However, I have never paid this much for any game! KOTOR was under $43 including sales tax at a B&M store (on sale of course). I think the most I have spent was about $47 (including sales tax, but on sale) for MS Flight Simulator 2004 in a metal case. With most games, if you keep your eyes open for sales and buy at the right time, you can save some money. With Dom2, there don't seem to be any alternatives. I am very intrigued by the apparent depth of Dominions, but I am having a hard time seeing that it is worth more than any other game I own or could buy.

[pole_shift]

If you enjoy the game what the hell is 10$ more or less. You can easily spend 20$ on night out at the movies. 1 Night. A few hours.