Newbie's first impressions

[Edi]

PCarroll, if you want other games besides Dom2, try the original Age of Wonders, if you haven't already. It has almost none of the micromanagement of AoW2 and AoW:SM, and while it still has some 3D look, very little compared to its sequels. It's also, in my opinion, more beautiful because the maps don't look so cluttered. The magic system also works much better than in AoW:SM, because any spellcaster can cast spells, it's not all dependent on one caster.

There are alsoa couple of mods for the original AoW, Warlock's Ruleset which was done by reverse engineering, and some others that were added when Triumph Studios released the dev editor which made it possible to do modifications without reverse engineering (but was still a lot of work).

Edi

[Alneyan]

PCarroll said:
Thanks. Just tried the demo--or rather, a similar demo the company offers now. It was hard to tear myself away. I usually don't like puzzle games, but it was pretty fun.

I checked their website yesterday, and noticed they made the older version harder to find; it is still available though, under Dugan's Dungeon More Info, or directly from DROD.net here .

It is not really a demo, of course, but simply the older incarnation of the game; it also lacks some of the nice commands from Rooted Hold, including some sword-swinging macros and Undo.

[PCarroll]

Edi said:
PCarroll, if you want other games besides Dom2, try the original Age of Wonders, if you haven't already. It has almost none of the micromanagement of AoW2 and AoW:SM, and while it still has some 3D look, very little compared to its sequels. It's also, in my opinion, more beautiful because the maps don't look so cluttered. The magic system also works much better than in AoW:SM, because any spellcaster can cast spells, it's not all dependent on one caster. . . .

Thanks. Unfortunately I gave my copy of the original AoW away a couple years ago. I barely remember the game now, but I do recall being more disappointed than pleased with AoW2. Until now, I thought I was the only one who felt that way. For a long time after getting AoW2, I kept playing the original AoW. But eventually the scenarios all looked too familiar, so I let it go.

My wife, a longtime Master of Magic fan, plays AoW3:SM while hoping for a MoM2 to come out. The main thing she likes about AoW3 is the random map generator; she hates scenario-based games (including campaign games with strung-together scenarios). The one thing she complains about in AoW3 is that there's no numerical score at the end of a game--no "hall of fame." She wants to know how well she did so she can try to beat her best score next time.

Since I'm rambling, I'll mention that years ago I used to love the game Conquered Kingdoms. Its graphics were obsolete even when the game was first released, but the game played well and was quite challenging and interesting. Evidently, it's due for a comeback sometime soon: http://www.lostadmiralreturns.com/co...dkingdoms.html

I tried the Lost Admiral demo (I hadn't played that game back in its day), and it's pretty good--as a game. The user interface is painfully awkward, though. I'd recommend these games to anyone who doesn't mind ancient 2D graphics and a chesslike feel to their games.

[Molog]

AoW2 was a dissapointment to me too, but then I found dominions 2 and all was good.

[teal]

PCarroll said:

A simple card game or classic board game might suit me. But then it's almost always abstract, and I miss the theme (be it fantasy, history, or whatever). Also, classic games tend to be very analytical; and to me, analysis is work, not play. I don't want to have to work at a game. Nor am I competitive. I play games for fun; competition is incidental.

...

What a weird, tangled-up attitude I've delveloped toward games, huh?

--Patrick

Hi Patrick,

I too have felt like I had a weird attitude towards games. What you are saying really struck a chord for me, games were getting too long and complex and frankly no fun, and yet the simpler, traditional games often lacked that "flavor" or theme which is what really attracks me to a game in the first place. Then I discovered a little German board game called Settlers of Catan. The game was short (around 90 minutes), it was fun (me and my friends laughed constantly about "trading wood for sheep"), it had some depth (there was a variety of strategies, not all of which were apparent at first glance), the theme was a little pasted on but definately present, and some analysis was rewarded but did not dominate the game. That game launched a whole industry around these short (playable in an evening), simple (rules were easily taught and learned), yet involving (more thought was required than, should I be the dog or the battleship this time?) games. Most of the designs come from Germany, so they are often called German style board games. You can find out more about them at a slightly out of date FAQ here. Or the comprehensive resource that is the Board Game Geek at www.boardgamegeek.com (which can be a bit overwhelming at first due to the huge numbers of these games that have come out since Settlers first made it big, and BGG is devoted to all games, not just these German ones).

Good luck in finding your gaming Nirvana!

Teal

[PCarroll]

teal said:. . . Then I discovered a little German board game called Settlers of Catan. . . . That game launched a whole industry around these short (playable in an evening), simple (rules were easily taught and learned), yet involving (more thought was required than, should I be the dog or the battleship this time?) games. Most of the designs come from Germany, so they are often called German style board games. . . .

I own Setters of Catan and Seafarers of Catan--and the Settlers card game. I also have a freeware version of Settlers on my PC. And I used to frequent rec.games.board, where such games are discussed all the time.

Settlers is a terrific game alright. Next time I get together with three other people for a game, that's probably the one we'll play.

However, last time I got together with three other people for a game was four or five years ago. Last time I played the Settlers card game with my wife was a year or two ago (after that, we discovered Caesar & Cleopatra, which she likes better). The people I know don't play games that often, and I haven't wanted to go out and meet new people just for the sake of playing games. To me, that's the biggest personal benefit of the home computer: it enables me to play games anytime I like without having to hunt up other players.

The Internet came along some years after I'd gotten used to playing games on the computer--and I still haven't really warmed up to playing online games yet. I have played some--but there's a part of me that really doesn't like the tension of playing against other people. Playing against the AI gives me the imaginative immersion and intellectual challenge without any of the interpersonal tension or putting my ego publicly at risk.

But the "German" games are mostly designed for social play. On the computer, Settlers isn't much fun. Trading games don't work well as single-player games, no matter how good the AI is. (I guess poker would be another game like that; in poker it's important to be able to see your opponents' faces--so computer poker would be sorely lacking.)

I briefly had another "German" game on my computer: Through the Desert. I found that one so abstract that I might as well have been playing a classic game like chess or go.

Speaking of classic games, this evening I spent an hour or so playing cribbage, backgammon, and dominoes on the computer--and I enjoyed them all! When I'm in the right mood, theme is optional. And one thing I especially like about playing games like those is that I feel I'm practicing so that I'll know what I'm doing next time I play against another person (even if that doesn't happen for another year or so).

Before I started playing those games, however, I taught my wife to play Dom2. More on that in a separate post.

[PCarroll]

I taught my wife to play Dom2 this evening. She's a longtime Master of Magic fan--still hoping a MoM2 comes out someday. Meanwhile she's been settling for AoW3:SM.

She seemed interested all while I was teaching her to play, and I sat and guided her through several moves. Then she started losing track of her commanders and getting frustrated, so she quit.

She ended up saying, "I don't see how anyone could say that game is a worthy successor to MoM. It doesn't have any of the stuff I like--such as being able to cast spells and see them take effect." She viewed only one battle, then refused to bother with that; she considered it a waste of time since she couldn't influence the outcome.

She also had the impression that Dom2 is an old game, judging by its plain look and old-fashioned user interface. The UI finally did her in; she's unlikely to play Dom2 again. She'll go back to AoW3:SM and keep hoping somebody releases a new, improved version of MoM.

[Tals]

Give her the manual and point out that F1 keeps track of the commanders. I'm a real non hard core gamer but this game in terms of magic is unsurpassed IMHO. A year on I still pick up the manual and go through it - nicely done and the descriptions and attention put to the spells is very impressive.

I'd also recommend an MP game - I could never go through this game in SP, really holds little interest - but in an MP pbem or network game - great!

Tals

[magnate]

Hmmm. I can see that Dom2's combat would disappoint if you were used to the tactical control of MoM or AoW. I played VGA Planets even before I played MoM, so Dom2's pbem-style combat videos were comfortably familiar, if not as exciting as tactical battles. As least you can script your armies in Dom2 - in VGAP it was hard enough to get them fighting in the right order, let alone telling them what to do in combat.

I missed the first AoW, but I'll look out for it. I quite enjoyed AoW2:SM but it was really *too* close to MoM for comfort, without being an improvement.

Patrick, I have run out of ideas for your gaming geas. I share your desire for an involving theme, but I don't share your impatience with analysis - in fact I generally prefer longer games over shorter ones, so Dom2 works very well for me (until the micro really hurts after about turn 70).

I do have a friend who is a veritable fount of gaming knowledge - I've known him for about ten years and we've hardly ever played the same game twice. I think he might be able to suggest some more games for you to try. If you're interested, PM me with your email address and I'll put you in touch with him.

CC

[Endoperez]

As I am reading this, I can't help thinking that PCarroll and others with lots of experience from both computer strategy games and strategic board games would be the perfect idea factories for Dominions III. Also, he could also tell how to make people like his wife get interested in the game more easily. UI improvements, Hall of Fame list for whole games (% of sites found in onwed provinces, conquered unique provinces, statistics for the game, best SCs/mages, favourite unit/commander/spell/summon etc etc), and possibly Battle Simulator or some other way to experience how directly orders affect battles. I'm not sure if lots of these are doable at this point, with the game slowly(?)coming together, but it never hurts...

What else has been mentioned in this thread? What else can you think of? I think the guys at Illwinter would be very interested in this discussion if they haven't already found this. It has been quite insightful for me, too.