Proportions mod Version 2.2 released

[oleg]

PvK, could you please assign some bogus ability to minor cultural facilities, like megapolies. I want to make AI gradually build colonies by building and upgrading cultural facilities but can not call them in sonstuction.txt file, AI likes to build cultural centers (for obvious reason)

[PvK]

Yes. I'm adding:

Component Destroyed On Use means Best Cultural facility besides Cultural Center

for 2.3. You can go ahead and add it in for testing, and it'll be the same in 2.3.

PvK

[PvK]

A group that has been playing Proportions multi-player LAN games on weekends has suggested removing the ability to put shipyards on medium (or larger) transport hulls, because it with the ~30% maintenance reduction, it makes a really powerful and economical mine/satellite layer in Proportions.

I also noticed that it is kind of irritating to build units on orbital shipyards, and have them appear on the base and have to be manually transferred down to the planet.

I was thinking what I would do, to respond to this without breaking existing games, would be to increase the cost and/or maintenance cost of shipyards with cargo capacity, and add a new shipyard type which will simply be like the old one, with no cargo and thus unable to be loaded on transport hulls. This will mainly have the effect of increasing the cost of transport-hull spaceyard ships so they are nearly as expensive as maintaining a cruiser-hull spaceyard ship.

The main side-effect for existing games would be that existing spaceyard components would become more expensive and ones not on transport hulls would want to be upgraded to non-cargo Versions.

I want to know if anyone will be miffed or sees any problems with this, particularly anyone currently playing in my Proportions game on PBW.

PvK

[Baron Munchausen]

I used to have both base space yards and space yard ships in the AI design files include cargo. But the AI was too stupid to remove the units it built from either type of vehicle so it ended up with wasted units that were never used clogging the base space yards and space yard ships. Have you noticed the AI in Proportions do this? If it's smart enough to actually find the units in the cargo of space yard bases and ships now then I'd keep the cargo space. It's very useful to include the space to hold units you have contructed in the same vehicle.

And I don't think it's unbalancing in itself to have a ship or base able to build and launch units. A BSY with mine/satellite laying bays is an excellent thing to put on a warp point.

[oleg]

PvK, can you assign some bogus ability to battle scanners ? The reason is once AI discovers Fire controls, it tries to put it on all Weapon Platforms. Due to excessive size of Fire control, WP end up without any "to hit plus" components.

Thank's for cultural facilities bogus ability, in Last game my experimental Pequeninos AI build up colony with 10 minor cities end then upgraded them ! It took more than 100 turns (no AI bonus, it was my race on autopilot) , but I was still impressed.

[PvK]

The Proportions AI is currently occasionally storing a few units on BSY's. It only happens when a BSY itself builds units, which only happens when it builds from the construction_vehicles file, which usually uses BSY's to build ships and bases rather than units. It happens sometimes, and is OK for storing units for example for satellite carriers to pick up, since they can't be launched from the BSY. However the AI already seems to keep enough sats and mines sitting on planets somewhere for a layer/launcher to come get.

In general though since they can't launch, and since non-domed planets have huge unit capacities in Proportions, I think it's best the AI not do this. Also, if such a design is wanted, you can just add cargo compartments.

I saw an interesting thing with the Phong ships - in one game, several of them were carrying a few infantry units each in the 1 kT space given to their supply bays! It might be possible to get an AI to frequently capture small colonies this way... at least, ungarissoned ones. Though, they might equally often just get themselves sawed in half by weapon platforms.

The reported inbalance was coming from Proportions' ~30% maintenance reduction for transports, and the availability of medium transports two tech levels before cruisers, so relatively early, human players were making SY ships on med transport hulls as minelayers, able to build 5 mines per turn. The typical low-tech design that I came up with has speed 4, range 23 one-way, costs around 6500 resources, but only about base 900 to maintain, and is an easy target. I don't see a similar warship-hull design until battlecruiser hulls, at least that can both build and lay mines in one ship (though you could do the same thing with a little more speed using a cruiser and an escort, but it would be more expensive).

Compared to conventional minelayer designs, let's see, a "fast-laying" low-tech med transport which stores and lays 30 mines per turn, range 34 one-way, costs about 4200 resources, 580 to maintain, but of course can't build anything (neither does it need to stay in the target sector for .6 years to lay 30 mines, though.

I think the main observation was that it allows construction far away from the homeworld (combined with resupply ships and supply outPosts). In Proportions, the homeworld tends to be where most of the unit construction goes on, and economical long-range transports are slow, so although the conventional minelayer looks better in the above case, the SYS looks better the farther away you are from a construction center.

Actually though, having looked at those examples, it's not seeming bad to me. Mainly I think they were worried that the AI won't do this, but the AI has always been at a disadvantage with minelaying (and lots of other areas).

I think though that mines in general may be a little more annoying/powerful than in the unmodded game, because the mid-game stage tends to have a more limited budget and efficient minesweepers are slow and cost a fair amount.

PvK

[PvK]

Cool, Oleg - glad it's working. I have been finding that the AI can develop some reasonable colonies if you tweak their files enough and give them 100 turns or so <g>.

Yes, good suggestion about base and platform scanners. Yesterday I also added a bogus ability to certain ECM levels, so the AI will use efficient ones and can finally stop trying to use engines instead of ECM (if you set your design file to use "Planet - Change Ground Defense" instead of "Combat To Hit Defense Plus" (just do a global search and replace in AI_DesignCreation.txt).

PvK

[NAV]

see above comments

[ May 21, 2002, 20:50: Message edited by: NAV ]

[NAV]

[quote]Originally posted by PvK:
[QB]A group that has been playing Proportions multi-player LAN games on weekends has suggested removing the ability to put shipyards on medium (or larger) transport hulls, because it with the ~30% maintenance reduction, it makes a really powerful and economical mine/satellite layer in Proportions.

~ Regarding Space Yards on cheap transports, in itself is fine, even though the AI does not make good/same use as Humans do.

But us crafty human players put a sat or mine Launching bay on it and bring it to our warp point, in 2 turns we build enough mines to stop any Incursion probe, in 3 more turns we have enough built and launched to probably stop the AIs entire Incursion. 5 more turns-we have enough mines from that Mine Fabricator built and launched, to stop the AIs Attack State sending it Back to infrastructure State to rebuild and try again. In all that (if) the AI_Settings file is on (Ships don't move through minefields := false) he will never be able to re attack because those replacement ships will be piecemealed through our craftfuly built mine field, until/If the AI completes the tree to Mine tech to get Sweepers... And in the mean time we are building our strike force to purge the AI before he gets those now valued mine sweepers... and the AI is foolishly wasting his ships, if the settings were not right; go ahead check your race_AI_Settings.

Also the Mine/Sat Ship yard fabricator launcher can go to far away systems and stop atop a warp point and build 100 mines in 20 turns and for (Low tech Sats)in less then 34 turns it will build you 100 sats.
Now with 20000 units, gee why, wonder why the AI is totaly stupid and cant compete.

Normally if it was just a Mine or Sat layer it would have to go back to a planet to refill, for example: A medium transport that carries 30 mines or 12 Sats with a speed of 4 and traveled 3 systems away it would take about 8.5 turns from the planet to the warp point then 8.5 turns back for a refill that's about 17 turns for one round trip so for a standard Launcher, it would take more then 50 turns to get that 100 mines and 141 turns to place 100 sats. Also considering that a planet now is tied up making 100 sats or mines, that's a lot of planet production even for a Human Player. A tanker also has to accompany the launcher and how about that long term escort commitment ????????? I doubt this would get done casually, however a ship yard launcher with a cargo hold on a cheap transport can do this in multiple locations with only a few, with devestating results. This is fine for an all Human and Neutral game, but the AI Player can't compete with this. I suggest removeing cargo capacity from yards for the above reasons. Not to say you can't do this with a large capital ship, but this gets expensive.

I like the way Proportions now has AI Sat and Mine Layers on transport hulls as well as a host of other hull designs that modders are designing to Benifit the AI.

[ May 21, 2002, 21:07: Message edited by: NAV ]

[oleg]

Pvk,
I noticed weird design minister behaivor:
In my design file, Fighters have small meson bLaster as #1 choice and small DUC as a second option. Now, if I know sDUC but no sMB, AI designs fighter without _any_ weapon but with small shield, which is not in the design at all !
(shield per kt=0). I suspect this is because sMB weapon family number 102 is duplicated by light missile system weapon family number.