Trample balance discussion - Page 7

HoneyBadger · #1 October 5th, 2008, 12:14 PM

I don't think there's anything "weird" about them, Sombre--no weirder than summoning up a Crusher or Mechanical men, in any case. Lots of games of this type have magical walls. There's even spells in the game that create castles-one in three seconds-and that's a *lot* more extreme than a single, small, barricade.

Size 5 elephants would be a lot weirder to me.

Sombre · #2 October 5th, 2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I don't think there's anything "weird" about them, Sombre--no weirder than summoning up a Crusher or Mechanical men, in any case. Lots of games of this type have magical walls. There's even spells in the game that create castles-one in three seconds-and that's a *lot* more extreme than a single, small, barricade.

They are a lot weirder than a crusher or a mechanical man. Those are fighting units. Even a watcher or monolith /does/ something. What you're proposing is just a big lump of elephant bait. Why would the elephant go attacking that? Why would soliders? Why wouldn't they just go around it? A barricade is not a valid unit. It's the sort of thing you might get in a mod, but no chance it will ever be in the vanilla game.

Tifone · #3 October 5th, 2008, 01:38 PM

Yep, reducing the size of the elephants (after 2 years

) seems cheap to me too.

Very much better giving some advantages vs. being trampled at their "natural enemies", IMHO, if ppl (read: devs) feel they are overpowered.

HoneyBadger · #4 October 5th, 2008, 04:20 PM

Are you familiar at all with the concept of field fortifications? How about breaking up a charge? Armies made field works all the time-especially good armies, like the Roman legions.

It's weird *not* to include them. It's weird *not* to do *anything* that works-not to mention pompous and suicidal. Ideally, soldiers should be able to dig pitfalls and spread caltrops, or just set up a bunch of spiked mounds-elephants are only very dangerous to an army when it has to face them out in the field, not when the opposing army's dug in. Elephants aren't modern tanks, afterall.

Since soldiers can't do that in the game, it should be allowable by magic.

The reason the elephants would attack them is because they'd be there. Why *wouldn't* they attack them? They're in the way.

If you need the summons to attack, for whatever reason, they certainly could do that. Just give each one 2 pike attacks per round, maybe a crossbow too, and up the cost to 5-6 Earth gems.

Sombre · #5 October 5th, 2008, 05:35 PM

Again, I have no issue with them in terms of 'realism' I just think a size 6 lump of crud as a unit doesn't actually work in the game.

Anyway it isn't going to be put in the game, so I don't mind :]

Illuminated One · #6 October 5th, 2008, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBagder

I don't think there's anything "weird" about them, Sombre--no weirder than summoning up a Crusher or Mechanical men, in any case. Lots of games of this type have magical walls. There's even spells in the game that create castles-one in three seconds-and that's a *lot* more extreme than a single, small, barricade.

But that those litte barricades are so "not extreme" makes them weird in my eyes. I can imagine some powerful wizard to summon a bunch of demons or earth spirits whatever to build some enormous citadel for him.
But I dont think that a mage of some self-esteem would even bother to "summon" some field barricades.

Also I don't think it would really work with the current games mechanics.
You cant make barricades that stop only elephants but not infantry or thugs. Would be kind of nice for archer nations though.

I'd much more like to see pikemen being able to repel them or deal damage if they're trampled.

Tifone · #7 October 5th, 2008, 06:05 PM

Mmh, wouldn't adding the "barricade" start again all the warmachines and catapults and trebutchets etc. discussion? It's a thing I really wouldn't like to see

Expecially as I personally don't feel the need of all that boring stuff

HoneyBadger · #8 October 5th, 2008, 07:05 PM

I seriously doubt that *any* of these suggestions are going to be added to the game-and Sombre, you're not Kristoffer or Johan that I've noticed, so you have approximately as much clue as the rest of us to what's going to be added. Saying that something is or isn't going to be added is just unnecessarily discouraging, and pointless, so I don't know why you're wasting your time.

Illuminated One: How is it that a mage isn't so self important/self aggrandizing as to toss a bunch of pebbles across a field, with Earth Shard, but is too classy to create a wall of earth to stop an elephant from running him over? That argument doesn't even make any sense.

For that matter, why *shouldn't* barricades stop other troops too? They could still go around them, ofcourse, being smaller than elephants, and it would be good balance to allow other troops to tear them down. It's meant to be effective against elephants and other large tramplers, it's not meant to be an "anti-elephants only" spell.

Sombre · #9 October 5th, 2008, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I seriously doubt that *any* of these suggestions are going to be added to the game-and Sombre, you're not Kristoffer or Johan that I've noticed, so you have approximately as much clue as the rest of us to what's going to be added. Saying that something is or isn't going to be added is just unnecessarily discouraging, and pointless, so I don't know why you're wasting your time.

"I doubt any of these suggestions will be added" followed by "Saying that something is or isn't going to be added is (bad)"? Huh?

As for wasting my time,.. that's a strange thing for you to say to me. You often post at great length about things which clearly aren't going to be added. I'm not sure why you think I'm wasting my time and you aren't, when all I'm doing is shelving an argument about this because it's pointless. I'm not trying to be rude or discourage you, but I don't have to be KO or JK to make an educated guess.

Quote:

They could still go around them, ofcourse, being smaller than elephants, and it would be good balance to allow other troops to tear them down. It's meant to be effective against elephants and other large tramplers, it's not meant to be an "anti-elephants only" spell.

Size makes no difference in the ability of a unit to 'go around' an enemy that's 'blocking' it. As units the fortifications will be targeted and aggressively sought out and attacked, not simply chopped at because they're in the way. You'll end up with a throng of guys surrounding it trying to get at it and attack while mages bomb it (and the troops around it) with spells.

HoneyBadger · #10 October 5th, 2008, 07:47 PM

I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying that it's pointless, and the only reason I'm saying it is that it's potentially harmful, in that it might give some of the newer people the impression that you know what you're talking about when you're just guessing.

And I post ideas, as I've stated before, in the full awareness that a lot of them probably will never make it into the game. I do it because it's fun, because I'm hoping to give other people ideas, and on the slim chance that they *might* go into the game.

Your third comment is helpful, in that it actually gives reasons why being able to make such units might not be a good idea.

I won't bother replying to comments that they're "boring", since that's purely a matter of opinion--and ofcourse, things can always be made more interesting/engaging, with a little creative thought.