PBW ethics, opinions please.

[Grandpa Kim]

Wow! I would really like to respond to each an every one of the Posts in this thread but even I don't have that kind of patience. I think I'll respond to just a few but let me start by quoting something I wrote many years ago:

"Any organization in need of a Code of Ethics is too far gone to be helped by it."

This community does not need a code of ethics! Just as Canada does not need a gun registry-- the law abiding will be good doobies and register and the crooks will still have their guns. For the most part we are "law-abiding citizens" and guys like Geo (with a little help from general population) will hunt down the "crooks".

Exploits. What is an exploit? I don't really agree with the definition accepted by the community, which is: "A part of the game play that does not conform precisely with the stated rules." The old 100 mine limit problem would fit this definition. The present Temporal weapon problem would not! It is a serious bug.

But as I said, I don't agree that this is the proper definition of an exploit. It is a bug! Albeit minor. I have played many games (dare I say all!) with bugs and you learn to live with them if they aren't game wreckers, and eventually, to take advantage of them. Some are never corrected. Some of them can't be avoided. One good example applying to pre-Gold games is the fact that the lower player number shoots first in any combat. By the current definition, this is an exploit and totally unavoidable until gold corrected it. And if you think thats a small thing, take a look at the remnants of my fleet in "Conquista".

To me an exploit is taking advantage of any part of the game to enhance my chances. When I design my empire, I exploit these characteristics to enhance my game style. I exploit emergency build in concert with empire stats, base design, colonizer design in a way that suits me and maximizes production. I do not leave it on for the full ten turns pumping out colonizers. That doesn't suit me, but I believe my way is better. No one here would say I am cheating in any manner by doing this. Nor would they say it is unethical. It is how you play the game... or at least one way. So if the game is poorly programmed presenting me with a problem and/or opportunity, I handle it as best I can. In fact, I often become a better player because of it. In the game "Conquista" mentioned earlier, when I was able to avoid those nasty warp point battles, I did extraordinarily well, because I was forced to plan and design around an unfortunate bug. In other words, I had to think!

Encyclopedia Malfadorica - PBW Ethics: IMHO there is not one thing in this article that has anything to do with ethics. It is merely a bunch of opinions on the "funnest" way to play the game. Excuse me, but I'll decide that on my own, and join the games that I find "funnest".

I'm still not sure what this EB "exploit" is but I'm beginning to get a glimmer. Let me let you in on a couple more bugs that I have never seen mentioned. Did you know that you can get emergency build to go beyond 10 turns? Without doubt, you can get it to go 11 turns. I found this out entirely by accident. I thought I was going to have to wait for 4 turns of slow build, but surprise, surprise, the ship was built on the 11th turn. And yes I'm quite sure it was 11 turns at E build; even the math agreed. What I'm wondering, is can it go even further? Suppose you have a ship that takes 15 turns at E build?...

The other is the upgrade facilities button. It will upgrade facilities currently under construction. This will not work with ships (it used to in the early Versions) but it still works for facilities. You can have a Monolith 2 with one turn left and upgrade it to Monoith 3 at absolutely no cost. The next turn you will have a Monolith 3 even though you started building a Monolith 2.

from Rextorres:

I've been backstabbed, been turtled against, and had people gang up against me by
trading techs, etc. and I may have been pissed off about it, but I never thought it was
cheating. It sounds like sour grapes to me when players want rules patched out because
they get beat using their pet playing style when playing against humans.

This I grok!

from Gozra:

I do know one player that has a list of folks he will play and not play with.

That might be me. There are no cheaters on my black list... yet! I haven't found any. The ones that are in there have a lack of consideration and commitment. I have no time for these sorts.

So, is it unethical to exploit a bug? No! It is not! You play the hand you are dealt. Is it unethical to exploit a bug forbidden by the host? Yes! Of course! By joining the game, you have agreed to the rules. To break them is cheating, plain and simple.

Okay, I've rambled on long enough. Who's next?

[Rambie]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Bug exploits are bad though. I tend to include a clause whereby all known bug exploits are Banned in my games. Then, I add new ones to the list as I find out about them.

Where is this list? I'd hate to get into a multiplayer game and use one of these on accident.

[Fyron]

Well... the list is kinda out-dated, cause I haven't started any games with the 1.78 patch (upgraded, yeah). Everything in the list is fixed in 1.78 except Retroseries (which isn't a bug anyways ).

I add new ones when I learn of them. The list for Adamant 004 is like this:

No bug exploits allowed:

-exceeding the 100 units per sector limit (this includes satellites and mines). To account for a slight margin of error due to the fact that you cannot directly control the number of units allowed, 105 shall be the absolute limit.

-Using a colony ship as an early tech minesweeper (which will no longer be an issue after the next patch, btw).

-Using drones as early tech minesweepers (which will no longer be an issue after the next patch, btw).

-Retroseries building is not a bug, it is an intended game feature, and so is not prohibited by this rule (ie: it is allowed to be done).

[couslee]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
couslee, it's not a matter of keeping something secret so it can be used against newbies. Bugs are often not discussed openly in the forums until they are patched out to keep unethical people from becoming aware of them and exploiting them.

It's not to keep it secret from you, it's to keep it from being used against you.

Geoschmo

I was only teasing you guys. if i ever got around to becomming involved in a MP game, I am sure I could find out what that exploits are. If nothing else, I would ask the game host. After a number of 3yr SMAC PBEM games, I am still a little soured on the whole idea. Not opposed, and it's fun, yes. but I would have to make sure I like this game enough to make a long commitment. I have already read about the drop-out problems. Had that a lot in SMAC also. I think I know what the exploit is your talking about, and is I am correct, it was generally accepted in SMAC and not gamey at all. But as the original CMN and co-writer of the SMAC PBEM rules, I feel any dis-allowed or frowned-upon tactics should always be agreed upon by the host and all players before the first turn is sent.

[DavidG]

Hmm I think I now know that Gamey = a bad thing. Wasn't sure before. It sounds like calling something 'gamey' is just what sore losers do when they are beaten by a tactic they did not know about. I used to play a guy were everytime I won I got accused of using a cheesy rule or tactic. The result was that every new game something else got Banned (ie Tech trade, surrender, red planets, Intel) untill finaly it was suggested that my using Ancient Race was cheating.

[couslee]

LOL @ ancient race being a cheat.

When life gives you lemmons, eat em. you could have recieved limes instead

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:
Wow! I would really like to respond to each an every one of the Posts in this thread but even I don't have that kind of patience

Likewise.

Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:


Encyclopedia Malfadorica - PBW Ethics: IMHO there is not one thing in this article that has anything to do with ethics. It is merely a bunch of opinions on the "funnest" way to play the game. Excuse me, but I'll decide that on my own, and join the games that I find "funnest".

Got time to edit?

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by couslee:

GAMEY: cheezy, can't believe you did that, ur an arsehole for doing that, I am pissed cause I didn't know about/think of it first.
Example: Using captured "other breathers" to colonize/re-colonize red-dot planets. (some might view this as gamey, don't flame me)

Yeah see, I have a real problem with "gamey" -- it supposed to be a game. I suppose that means I'm not roleplaying my bloodthirsty Krill race properly by making a trade alliance. Maybe I dont feel like playing that way?

[geoschmo]

Now see Arkcon, would a true bloodthirsty race really advertise themselves as such? Wouldn't they list themselves in the Galactic Who's Who as a race of peaceful artists? That way the sucker races would all turn their back and they could pounce them. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Gozra]

Wellll It looks like:
'GAMEY' is not a situation but a state of mind.
I was a bit irritated at a friend when he revealed that upgrading a ship and not upgrading the engines left the ship with it's current fuel load. My first thought was damn I wish I knew that and I got that gamey feeling. But He just knew the game better than I and so NO ONE has come up with a truly 'GAMEY' Situation.