Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[legowarrior]

What kind of options do the Jomon have at present?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by legowarrior

What kind of options do the Jomon have at present?

Off the top of my head:
Yamabushi and Sohei, both cap only. Yamabushi is the only one of the two worth using at present, and they're worth using even without a bless.

Some sacred commanders in the conjuration tree. Can thug ok, but they require earth or astral gems, which are the gem types you also want to be using frequently for other things, and then they need gear.

[rdonj]

All of the tengu are also sacred. And oni generals and dai oni. Possibly some of their other summons as well.

[Festin]

I'm not sure what you mean. Its not like the sohei is so good that everyone would start playing a bless. It would just make playing a blessing an interesting and viable choice (something it really isn't right now).

Well, somebody on this forum recently made a good point when he compared playing Jomon with using a Swiss knife to fight a man with a hammer. In my opinion, making Sohei non-cap only basically equals adding another tool to the Swiss knife. Yes, it would be possible to play Jomon as bless nation, but Jomon already has lots of different options - what it need is not more options, but making some of these options good, and/or making them fit together.

For example, what kind of bless would you pick for Sohei? Is it the same bless that would be optimal for their thugs? I don't really think so. Thugs need E and N, sacred units usually need something else. Plus, Jomon already has excellent shock infantry - this is the niche that sacreds usually fill. So, IMO Sohei will either 1)replace Aka-Oni samurai, further restricting the pretender design options and adding little to available tactics or 2)turn out inferior to aka-oni, making change meaningless.

I like several things about Jomon, like their thugs, their samurai infantry, their underwater units, etc, and I would really like to see these get some boost instead.

[kianduatha]

That was very nicely put, Festin.

How would you like to se Ryuujin/their thugs in general be changed to be more useful? My almost default is to give them some priest levels because of their flavor text, but what are your thoughts?

[Festin]

Well, I'm all for Ryujin getting a priest level (while I must admit that I never used them in MP myself, because I never managed to actually enter the sea). At least, it will give a player some additional reason to invest in an Earth bless, which is badly needed by several thugs. Too bad that E and N are two paths nicely covered by Jomon's mages.

Now, regarding the summons:
Kappa: raise the price (but not the research level), and make the Kappa Chief come with some Kappa troops. Wow, we can actually use them to enter water now.

Ujigami/Kenzoku: these are very nice as they are, so they hardly need a real boost. Their real problem is fatigue, caused by the horribly, unrealistically heavy samurai armor, which has long been in need of some weight reduction, by the way. If Jomon's mages were sacred it would not be such a problem (because an E bless would be an obvious choice), but they are not sacred and will never be, because it is not thematic. Also, Kenzoku could use a priest level like Ujigami, but it is not crucial.

Ghost General: they are almost perfect thugs, but oh well. Maybe, maybe one day we will see a death random on a Jomon mage. I want to believe.

Various tengu: never saw them summoned. Probably they could use a slight cost reduction.

Tatsu: currently useless. Increase stats and/or add H1, and/or reduce gems cost and then maybe it will become a viable choice as a flying raider.

Kitsune: eh, maybe a cost reduction? Never saw a single one of them used.
EDIT: give them Seduction, and they will become a nice and thematic unit.

Dai Oni: please make them cheaper. I am sick of Tartarians. I want to see cool national SCs like Dai Oni. Yes, I know Jomon has no way to summon them.

[kianduatha]

Tengu are amazingly badass...Dai Tengu have the native ability to get up to A4 in combat with Teaching Sign, and you get enough flying sacred troops with to more than justify the cost.

Amusingly enough I'm even playing a MP game with Jomon and have some Kitsune and still assumed that they had seduction. Heh.

[legowarrior]

I have heard suggestions that the Onmyo-ji and the Master Shugenja have linked randoms, which would make them better units in most cases. A guarantee of 2 Nature, Water, Earth, Fire or Air would make cite search easier. You would lose the chance to get 2 Earth 2 Nature Shugenja for the most part.

So propose a two part change and an increase of cost. First is that we have linked randoms, and that we increase the chance of a third non linked random from 10% to 25%. Along with this, we should increase the price of the units to 180 since they are a bit better.

Lastly, is there any point to the Shugenja? I realize they are subordinate to the Master Shugenja, but if I am limited on gold, I'd prefer to build a Monk, with it's 1 holy.

[kianduatha]

Making a true linked random of FAWEN is impossible given the modding commands we have (if I understand correctly, we could give elemental linked randoms but including nature puts a kink in that), first off. Second...some of those weird combinations are occasionally useful.

[legowarrior]

On occasion, maybe, but for the most part, linked is far more useful. It gives you a good chance at 3 Earth or 3 nature, and 2 earth 2 astral allows you to forge a lot of useful items.