No more MP for Hinnom?

[HoneyBadger]

You know, the Devs themselves have even stated that they assumed balancing problems would be taken care of by the modding community, so I wonder why more people don't try to create MP friendly versions of Nations? Where's the great shame and doubt in this? There's good, easy access to in-game graphics now, so Hinnom will look the same, and it's a lot faster and easier than waiting for the off-chance that one of the Devs *might* someday play a Nation you think is unbalanced, and *might* rebalance it in a way that satisfies you.

Sure, you'll get the same arguments and hassles about how it's still not balanced, but once the work of actually recreating the vanilla nation is done, making adjustments becomes a fairly simple process that anyone can do.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

You know, the Devs themselves have even stated that they assumed balancing problems would be taken care of by the modding community, so I wonder why more people don't try to create MP friendly versions of Nations? Where's the great shame and doubt in this? There's good, easy access to in-game graphics now, so Hinnom will look the same, and it's a lot faster and easier than waiting for the off-chance that one of the Devs *might* someday play a Nation you think is unbalanced, and *might* rebalance it in a way that satisfies you.

Sure, you'll get the same arguments and hassles about how it's still not balanced, but once the work of actually recreating the vanilla nation is done, making adjustments becomes a fairly simple process that anyone can do.

While this is a great theory, there are a couple of problems with it. First being that we've only even been able to properly use mod nations in MP games for a couple of weeks, so it's not as if everyone's mindset is geared towards that. But I think the major hurdle is that most people are going to be a bit leary about mod nations that they haven't experienced before. I mean, consider the body of effort that has gone into at least making a case for balancing Hinnom - to expect that sort of undertaking for a mod nation may be a bit fanciful. So it's likely that a lot of people (other than the most experienced, who are either 100% confident in themselves, or who can assess the mod nation at a glance) will continue to have a generally fearful perspective on the unknown. Obviously, you could release a mod version of Hinnom that was declared "toned down" or "weakened", but even if people acknowledged it were true, I bet you more often than not if someone said they were implementing that mod, no one would want to use the player nerfed nation.

I'm not saying no one will ever include player modified vanilla nations, or that no one would ever select that particular mod nation, only that there is a bit of a gap between where we are now, and that being commonplace on either end.

But also, it seems to me that everyone is pretty comfortable with there being "some" discrepancy in power. I mean everyone acknowledges that Lanka and Niefel are powerhouses, and they usually get picked fast, but they're within a certain variance that is acceptable, because they CAN be taken down with a joint effort, and often are as a result. Because of that, it does seem reasonable to ask for them to be brought within that range of variance so that perhaps they might be considered very strong, but not entirely unfairly so. And not necessarily to expect it to be this grand sweeping fine-tuning. A few increases in resource/gold cost, maybe a certain unit made capital only, a tiny change to starting army, and voila, you have surely brought the nation more in line with their expected performance.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im of the same opinion.
Except that Im hoping for the AI complainers to mod more AI friendly nations.

[Edratman]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Im of the same opinion.
Except that Im hoping for the AI complainers to mod more AI friendly nations.

There are two mods available for AI friendly nations, EA Improved Computer Opponents and MA Improved Computer Opponents. Each mod improves the six nations with the lowest number of MP victories.

[HoneyBadger]

Well, yeah, you and I both share a love of the SP game. I keep hoping the Devs will gift us with a magical bundle of tools that we can, at the very least, unpack and put into play. It's a faint hope, though.

There is some work being done on making the AI more challenging in the Mod forums, by Edratman. From what I've read, he seems to have the right idea about what needs doing to make it better-atleast as far as preventing the AI from suiciding itself.

[Zeldor]

JimMorrison:

I wouldn't be so sure about Niefel. They are more powerful than Lanka and should be toned down. The only reason they are not banned is that they are not as extremely overpowered as LA Ermor. But not far from that [powerful recruitable SCs, what else do you want?]. They could try to beat LA Ermor 1:1.

[HoneyBadger]

I acknowledge all of that, JimMorrison, but every single nation ever is a "player nerfed nation"-that player being Kristoffer or Johan, and-coming back to my original argument-they're the ones asking that we take up the burden of balancing the nations out.

They're busy fellows, and expecting them to do all that they're doing, *plus* something like this (and they already do, quite often, as it is), is putting a lot of burden on them.

And the easiest way to get people thinking about a new idea is to present it in a public place, so that's what I'm doing here-in the hopes that it'll start people changing their gears a bit.

As far as people using the "nerfed" nations, once you get some of those very experienced players playing them, and acknowledgeing that they are indeed more balanced, and better for MP, then I'm betting the general public will accept them. And it's better that they be nerfed than banned from MP. Besides, "nerfed" isn't the same as "neutered". If Himmon could be adjusted from an 11 to a 9 or an 8 on the power/versatility scale, I think that would be enough.

I haven't noticed many MP games that have stayed empty for very long, for lack of players, even the mod-nation ones, so I'm pretty confident that test games for rebalancing nations will get filled too.

It's a lot of work to do, but such a project would make the game more fun for everyone, and I'm sure that thanks and appreciation would follow.

[HoneyBadger]

I don't agree that Niefelheim is uber-powerful. Very powerful, yes, but they lack any PD, they're not an early rush Nation, and they have no real national Summons. They can become quite powerful, if you know what you're doing with them, and aren't opposed effectively, but they're not that easy to learn, and they're almost always used in exactly the same way. They're a middle game nation that's relatively weak in both the Early game and the Late game.

They should probably get some Gluttony (Starvation really isn't a threat for them in their current state, if you plan for it), and their Gygjas and Skratti might eat a little Population, but they could also stand to have some more heroes and a few decent National Summons.

There's a *ton* of mythological elements that could be directly added from Norse literature to Niefelheim to make them more interesting. The biggest problems with Niefelheim are that it's generally a 1 trick pony with a very powerful trick, and that they haven't been updated in quite a long time. I could stand some minor nerfing, to keep them more in line with newer nations, but I want more diversity and interest out of them, too, especially since they're the defacto "flagship" nation of Dominions.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I don't agree that Niefelheim is uber-powerful .... they're not an early rush Nation

Yes they are.

[Epaminondas]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Yes they are.

I agree with Sombre here. But I also agree with Honey in that they are not that strong at the end game, and hence I don't think they really require a major over-haul.

I hate "nerfing" anything as a general philosophy unless it is ridiculously out of whack--though I understand sometimes that that is the only practicable and convenient solution.