No more MP for Hinnom? - Page 8

Zeldor · #71 October 1st, 2008, 09:58 PM

JimMorrison:

I wouldn't be so sure about Niefel. They are more powerful than Lanka and should be toned down. The only reason they are not banned is that they are not as extremely overpowered as LA Ermor. But not far from that [powerful recruitable SCs, what else do you want?]. They could try to beat LA Ermor 1:1.

HoneyBadger · #72 October 1st, 2008, 10:15 PM

I acknowledge all of that, JimMorrison, but every single nation ever is a "player nerfed nation"-that player being Kristoffer or Johan, and-coming back to my original argument-they're the ones asking that we take up the burden of balancing the nations out.

They're busy fellows, and expecting them to do all that they're doing, *plus* something like this (and they already do, quite often, as it is), is putting a lot of burden on them.

And the easiest way to get people thinking about a new idea is to present it in a public place, so that's what I'm doing here-in the hopes that it'll start people changing their gears a bit.

As far as people using the "nerfed" nations, once you get some of those very experienced players playing them, and acknowledgeing that they are indeed more balanced, and better for MP, then I'm betting the general public will accept them. And it's better that they be nerfed than banned from MP. Besides, "nerfed" isn't the same as "neutered". If Himmon could be adjusted from an 11 to a 9 or an 8 on the power/versatility scale, I think that would be enough.

I haven't noticed many MP games that have stayed empty for very long, for lack of players, even the mod-nation ones, so I'm pretty confident that test games for rebalancing nations will get filled too.

It's a lot of work to do, but such a project would make the game more fun for everyone, and I'm sure that thanks and appreciation would follow.

GrudgeBringer · #73 October 1st, 2008, 10:34 PM

I think in a Elite Vetern Player game Hinnom may be taken cautiously because the Vets all know to take Hinnom out early and HOW to do it.

In lesser skilled games I would support Hinnom being banned as in all the games I've played (and thats really not very many) Hinnom jumps out of the gate and never looks back.

By the time everyone decides to quit squabbling and do something about it...its too late.

Game over and people start going AI.

Its our own fault for the most part but most of us really DON'T know how to stop them.

Just an opionion...

HoneyBadger · #74 October 1st, 2008, 11:03 PM

I don't agree that Niefelheim is uber-powerful. Very powerful, yes, but they lack any PD, they're not an early rush Nation, and they have no real national Summons. They can become quite powerful, if you know what you're doing with them, and aren't opposed effectively, but they're not that easy to learn, and they're almost always used in exactly the same way. They're a middle game nation that's relatively weak in both the Early game and the Late game.

They should probably get some Gluttony (Starvation really isn't a threat for them in their current state, if you plan for it), and their Gygjas and Skratti might eat a little Population, but they could also stand to have some more heroes and a few decent National Summons.

There's a *ton* of mythological elements that could be directly added from Norse literature to Niefelheim to make them more interesting. The biggest problems with Niefelheim are that it's generally a 1 trick pony with a very powerful trick, and that they haven't been updated in quite a long time. I could stand some minor nerfing, to keep them more in line with newer nations, but I want more diversity and interest out of them, too, especially since they're the defacto "flagship" nation of Dominions.

Sombre · #75 October 2nd, 2008, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I don't agree that Niefelheim is uber-powerful .... they're not an early rush Nation

Yes they are.

HoneyBadger · #76 October 2nd, 2008, 03:16 AM

Maybe, sometimes, but only as a side effect of being giants in the first place. If you try to rush Abyssia or Hinnom for instance, it's not likely to work out in your favor. If there's weak nations that you can stomp on, sure, you can rush them with Niefelheim, but you can also overextend yourself, and get your Nation cut out from under you, for lack of PD and the expense of your troops.

Rushing with Niefelheim is very risky, as opposed to say Helheim, where you can quickly and consistently attack your nearest neighbors, and hold on to the territory. And Niefelheim's just as vulnerable to a rush as any other nation, too, and moreso than several.

Endoperez · #77 October 2nd, 2008, 03:20 AM

I like the trample discussion, so I created a new thread for it. I think it warrants more discussion, and this thread is about Hinnom, not elephants.

HoneyBadger · #78 October 2nd, 2008, 03:23 AM

I'll happily move the Niefelheim discussion over to the Niefelheim thread, too, if anybody will follow me.

llamabeast · #79 October 2nd, 2008, 09:36 AM

I would have thought that Niefelheim was an extreme example of a rush nation. Stopping E9N9 giants early on is all but impossible.

archaeolept · #80 October 2nd, 2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I don't agree that Niefelheim is uber-powerful. Very powerful, yes, but they lack any PD, they're not an early rush Nation, and they have no real national Summons. They can become quite powerful, if you know what you're doing with them, and aren't opposed effectively, but they're not that easy to learn, and they're almost always used in exactly the same way. They're a middle game nation that's relatively weak in both the Early game and the Late game.

say what???