MP: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI. Game Over. Team ACGHHS wins!

[rdonj]

Oh! I thought you meant multiple files for the same game, not different ones. That I most assuredly did not do.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Oh! I thought you meant multiple files for the same game, not different ones. That I most assuredly did not do.

Nahh. That came up early on so I was already handling that. Players can send new turn files right up to the moment of hosting.

By the way, only quickhost is running now. Not forced timer as the webpage shows (another thing to work on today)

[Tollund]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

The incident would have been handled automatically by direct connect. I never appreciated how many checks and balances Johan as written into the direct-server.

Checks and balances? That's basic programming! It would be utterly incompetent to assume that you should start hosting simply because you have the proper number of turn files without checking to make sure that all those turn files are both for every nation and that they aren't corrupted.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Tollund

Checks and balances? That's basic programming! It would be utterly incompetent to assume that you should start hosting simply because you have the proper number of turn files without checking to make sure that all those turn files are both for every nation and that they aren't corrupted.

Heehee. Of COURSE it is. And manual processing of each hosting is probably best if you should ever decide to host a game yourself.

Care to let me in on what the next hangup will be before we receive one? That way I can start writing it in ahead of time.

Also, checks would not necessarily have fixed it anyway. What should be done with a check? How tyrranical should deleting a players sent file be? Whose responsibility is it to fix player errors? The server? the person running the game? the Team Captain? the player themself? If I were all of the above then of course things would probably simpler.

[Tollund]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Heehee. Of COURSE it is.
Care to let me in on what the next hangup will be before we receive one?

Since I don't know what your scripts do, then I can't be certain.

Also, checks would not necessarily have fixed it anyway.

Checking to make sure that there are actually 16 unique .2h files in the directory rather than assuming that every new .2h file is unique would have done it in this case. You should also be checking that the inputed .2h filenames match the expected filenames. I'd also want to check the timestamps to ensure that each file is newer than the generation time of the last .trn file. This will deal with players that only resubmit their own turns, but won't deal with players who don't redo their turns from scratch. There's no way to test for that automatically. But sanity checking your inputs is basic and necessary for any program that is going to be used with input that you don't personally control.

How tyrranical should deleting a players sent file be?

Well, if the turn file isn't for the right game then it shouldn't be used. If it isn't from the right player then it shouldn't be used. This one is tricky, as some people have multiple email addresses. It's also not really possible to deal with deliberate cheating such as spoofing your email to match somebody else's. So you can usually assume that, barring malice, a turn file for a specific nation in an email that identifies which game it is for will be for that specific nation.

Whose responsibility is it to fix player errors? The server? the person running the game? the Team Captain? the player themself? If I were all of the above then of course things would probably simpler.

The more people you try to involve in the process the more complicated it gets. Players are responsible for playing their turns and submitting .2h files. In a rollback situation they are responsible for redoing turns from scratch by deleting old .2h files. The admin is responsible for fixing other errors.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Tollund

Checking to make sure that there are actually 16 unique .2h files in the directory rather than assuming that every new .2h file is unique would have done it in this case. You should also be checking that the inputed .2h filenames match the expected filenames. I'd also want to check the timestamps to ensure that each file is newer than the generation time of the last .trn file. This will deal with players that only resubmit their own turns, but won't deal with players who don't redo their turns from scratch. There's no way to test for that automatically. But sanity checking your inputs is basic and necessary for any program that is going to be used with input that you don't personally control.

There were 16 unique files. One player sent a late_nation.2h then corrected it by sending their early_nation.2h which gave us 16 2h files in the game directory. Of course NOW I can see where it might have been a good idea to check for 16 early_*.2h files but Im trying to keep the script generic for future use.

The time stamps are considered in a way. Actually the 2h files are wiped clean by the post-host script each time. Players can send as many turns as they want to update their actions between hosting, the latest sent will always be used.

Well, if the turn file isn't for the right game then it shouldn't be used. If it isn't from the right player then it shouldn't be used. This one is tricky, as some people have multiple email addresses. It's also not really possible to deal with deliberate cheating such as spoofing your email to match somebody else's. So you can usually assume that, barring malice, a turn file for a specific nation in an email that identifies which game it is for will be for that specific nation.

Exactly. At the moment the easiest thing is to check, and report. Thats done for the most part. Corrupted files, ascii attachments, bad serial numbers, quickhost check, time warning emails, and now apparently wrong game needs added. Im sure something else will pop up also. As far as the emails thing that also has shown itself. We have people using multiple emails, not to mention the team arrangments which means some turns come in as team OR from private email. So at the moment, checks only write to the report files or generate emails to specific static addresses (such as the game master)

The more people you try to involve in the process the more complicated it gets. Players are responsible for playing their turns and submitting .2h files. In a rollback situation they are responsible for redoing turns from scratch by deleting old .2h files. The admin is responsible for fixing other errors.

Exactly. As an old internet server admin I tend to avoid being too much hand-holding (also referrred to as tyrranical) about users files and emails unless Im specifically asked to. This is not my game.

Im also forming a new opinion on pbem. I used to consider the benefit of pbem to be all on the server side. Direct connect is much easier for players, especially newbies. And it settles so many of these problems. The advantage was much less load on the server by not having to run continually. But now that so many checks are involved kicking off on each email received Im not so sure of that by the time every possibility is written in.

[Septimius Severus]

Squirrel, my e-mail and Gandalf's is being sent to you and your captain ASAP. You can either send it me or better yet Gandalf directly. As everyone is aware we shall know if any other "revised" turns were to have come in.

Let's get this done with quickly.

[Tollund]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

There were 16 unique files. One player sent a late_nation.2h then corrected it by sending their early_nation.2h which gave us 16 2h files in the game directory. Of course NOW I can see where it might have been a good idea to check for 16 early_*.2h files but Im trying to keep the script generic for future use.

Then you aren't planning to bother fixing the bug even though you know that it exists? That it will almost certainly cause problems in the future? Why are you force hosting the game when you want to run it with the quickhost flag? That would have prevented the turn from being generated if the proper .2h files weren't there.

Im also forming a new opinion on pbem. I used to consider the benefit of pbem to be all on the server side. Direct connect is much easier for players, especially newbies.

Only if you are so condescending that you assume that newbies aren't capable of emailing a .2h file and saving a .trn file while they are capable of typing in an IP address.

And it settles so many of these problems. The advantage was much less load on the server by not having to run continually. But now that so many checks are involved kicking off on each email received Im not so sure of that by the time every possibility is written in.

Why aren't you letting the game itself perform some of those checks instead of forcing it to ignore the built in error checking?

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Tollund

Then you aren't planning to bother fixing the bug even though you know that it exists? That it will almost certainly cause problems in the future?

I will write it into the checks.
Actually now I notice that it was already in there. The problem would have appeared on the Turns_Check.txt available for everyone to view (the only check not listed there is the check for matching serials).

If you mean do I plan to delete files sent by players to Septimius game, then no. Not unless its requested. If it was my game I might but Im not completely sure how much hand holding I would want to do then either. Maybe if it was a newbies game.

Why are you force hosting the game when you want to run it with the quickhost flag? That would have prevented the turn from being generated if the proper .2h files weren't there.

Thats a really insightful question. Unfortunately the pbem version only has one hosting option. --host. There isnt actually a quickhost for pbem. Its kindof written in by us.

Only if you are so condescending that you assume that newbies aren't capable of emailing a .2h file and saving a .trn file while they are capable of typing in an IP address.

I try never to be condescending. But there do seem to be many more discussions involved and problems arise. In every game of first players thre is usually at least one that have to be told where to put their files, where to find their files to send, to check their spam lists for missing files, how to zip in some cases, how to attach, how to rollback. Some even end up changing their mail service due to THEIR server being too tyrranical about checking users emails and files then correcting them.

Plugging in two settings (Server and IP) still needs some explaining but I cant seem to make it be as involved as all that.

Why aren't you letting the game itself perform some of those checks instead of forcing it to ignore the built in error checking?

I would if I could. But the only way I can come up with for that would be the old way we played SingleAge games. Collect all the turn files, open the game in server mode, turn in the turns myself one at a time, host, then shut it down to mail out the turns.

[Septimius Severus]

Tollund, good discussion, lets keep this thread #1. Keep that postin goin! Can you believe we are approaching 1,000 posts? Though I don't think the "condescending" remark was called for with regard to the job Gandalf has been doing or his intent.

I have not instructed Gandalf to delete bad turns, generally since correct turns would overwrite these in many instances at least. Also, maybe because I don't handle the server side and frankly the issue of wrong age .2h files being sent has not been a problem so far. But there is the possibility of all sorts of crazy things players can send in. An oversight, perhaps. Condescendence, I don't think so.

Gandalf has implemented quite a few checks in fact already. The lessons learned will be applied to future games I am sure. I for one am excited quite frankly at the prospect of possibly being able to play Dom3 via both direct connect and PBEM in the same game, at the same time, in game 2, if all works out.