second class super combattants

Pocus · #1 November 2nd, 2003, 08:51 AM

From the spells descriptions, it seems that these creatures are not limited in number:

Golem
Harvester of Sorrow
Fallen Angel
Vampire Lord

Some can perform rather well in melee fight. Any vets care to discuss if they see potential abuse? The Golem for example has full slots, and his quite healty. Astral nations with gems (Pythium, Arco) could try to recruit several and equip them.

My proposal would not be to tweak them down (because when not used as SC, they would perform even less efficiently), but renforce the mechanisms which lead to the demise of a strong isolated unit versus a hord of weaker units. This could fix some of the problem with combatting pretender too. Some quick examples:

- bypassing defence always incur one hit, even if prot is not passed.
- being attacked has a random chance of increasing your fatigue by one.

That would tone down the whole 'I start with a combat pretender and take the world with him' issue too.

Potatoman · #2 November 2nd, 2003, 09:28 AM

That might severely disadvantage nations that rely on small numbers of big, costly units. Jotunheim (Niefelheim especially) and Ulm come to mind.

Nagot Gick Fel · #3 November 2nd, 2003, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pocus:
From the spells descriptions, it seems that these creatures are not limited in number:

Golem
Harvester of Sorrow
Fallen Angel
Vampire Lord

Some can perform rather well in melee fight. Any vets care to discuss if they see potential abuse? The Golem for example has full slots, and his quite healty.

Heh. The first thing I'll check when I receive the full Version is the Pythium/Golem Cult combo. That is, if Communion counts wrt Magic Duel in Doms II (didn't check yet). If it does, a Golem with a matrix and a horde of Communicants could be a real Juggernaut. And if the spell AI hasn't still neglects Magic Duel (it did in Doms 1), for the Golem to remain duel-safe, the Commies have only to survive for 5 battle rounds.

MStavros · #4 November 2nd, 2003, 10:21 AM

Supercombattants are a big problem in Dominions I. and will be in Doms II. Supercombattants are killing the strategic part of the game.

Saber Cherry · #5 November 2nd, 2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
Supercombattants are a big problem in Dominions I. and will be in Doms II. Supercombattants are killing the strategic part of the game.

Hmm. So you've noticed this, have you? I doubt it. Most of these are outside the demo limitations. Valid complaints are one thing, and speculation can be useful, but trolling, spamming, and making false statements (like that you've actually seen SC's hurting Doms II) are not appreciated.

-Cherry

[ November 02, 2003, 08:40: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

apoger · #6 November 2nd, 2003, 11:13 AM

>Golem

Vulnerable to magic duel, so not too much of an issue.

>Harvester of Sorrow

We are going to see a lot of this bad boy.

>Fallen Angel
>Vampire Lord

Not quite as bad due to low hit points.

Pocus · #7 November 2nd, 2003, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by apoger:
>Golem
Vulnerable to magic duel, so not too much of an issue.

true, but :
- there is situations where you dont risk to bump into the astral king (like fighting a non native astral nations).
- you dont have to fear a countergateway, as you now need a target lab to jump.

Quote:

>Harvester of Sorrow

We are going to see a lot of this bad boy.

>Fallen Angel
>Vampire Lord

Not quite as bad due to low hit points.

vampire lord are immortals and 0 fatigue , IIRC. Can be useful

apoger · #8 November 2nd, 2003, 11:39 AM

>- there is situations where you dont risk to bump into the astral king (like fighting a non native astral nations).

The golem only has astral 2, so any mage with a touch of astral is a potential threat. It doesn't take the astral king.

They are tough if you spend some time working on them. But you always have to keep the astral vulnerabilty in mind.

I'd rather save my astrals for angelic hosts. They can wreck the blood SC's sometimes.

DominionsFan · #9 November 2nd, 2003, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

quote:
Originally posted by MStavros:
Supercombattants are a big problem in Dominions I. and will be in Doms II. Supercombattants are killing the strategic part of the game.

Hmm. So you've noticed this, have you? I doubt it. Most of these are outside the demo limitations. Valid complaints are one thing, and speculation can be useful, but trolling, spamming, and making false statements (like that you've actually seen SC's hurting Doms II) are not appreciated.

-Cherry

Hey Cherry, I think he was talking about the abusable PRETENDER SCs! So you say that is it a good tactic to make a cheap pretender SC and massacre all indies and AIs without a problem?
This is a cheap abuse IMHO, and I agree with Stavros.
I am not a vet, but I've had this experience with the Dominions II. demo.

IF you will be able to make SCs later on, like golem, that is all cool, but this early game pretender SC abuse SUCKS.

Pocus · #10 November 2nd, 2003, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by apoger:

I'd rather save my astrals for angelic hosts. They can wreck the blood SC's sometimes.

never dared to summon one in multiplay, I find the archangel very fragile. Sure, with some luck, an ice devil can find itself alone against the 6 angels and archangel, but I think I'm gambling too much if I count on this (and anyway with his defence, the angels wont touch him).

If not alone, the ID will have probabilities for him : he will kill your troops while your angelic host decide to attack something else.

Do you have some tricks on how to make good usage of them?

oh wait, this is where the attack big monsters can be handy to target better an ID. Still I'm sure it will be easy to fool the targetting system : put a big dark vine on hold, with a circle of good mundane units, and wait for the angels to fall into the trap.