Blood Magic

[apoger]

I have seen a great deal of foolishness writen in the Last few days concerning blood magic.

A lot of this has to do with the numbers. Yes the number of blood slaves required to summon the big blood guys has been raised. However we must compare that to the other game economies that have also been changed.

Conjured elementals now cost 100% more fatigue and cost gems. Seasonal spirits now cost 100% more. Star Fire costs quadruple the fatigue and does about 50% damage. Furthermore the gold economy in Dom II is much weaker than in Dom I.

In comparison the blood magics had a cost increase of about 50%. While the cost did in fact go up, when considered in relation to the rest of the game the practical cost is effectively lower!

The blood summons were a huge balance issue in Dom I. Now that they are effectively cheaper, I cannot see how this has done anything but make a bad situation worse.

Keep in mind also that many spells that were vital for countering the big blood summons, are changed or gone. So not only are they cheaper, but there are less counters for them.

There have been two changes that in theory should counter blood magic.

First there are a limited number of summons. Unfortunately there are still plenty of big demons to summon. Enough that most blood nations will have plenty to work with. Furthermore after using up the big summons (if possible) there are plenty of other blood magics that can be used for great effect. I fear that blood nations will have no shortage of things to spend slaves on.

Second the sanguine dowsing rod is no longer useable by non-blood mages. This is good since it will help keep some non-blood nations out of the blood business (more on this shortly) but it does nothing to slow down the potential abuse from the blood nations.

Illwinter got pretty heavey handed in it's attempt to supress player economic investment. They removed patrols, depleted the economic scales, and playing with taxes gets population killed but not grown. I find this ironic since the blood economy is vastly more controllable by the players and is much more of a threat than extra gold ever was.


I just got finished doing some testbeds for blood magic and the results are sickening.

Even without the SDR's players will be plenty able to abuse blood magic.

Please feel free to duplicate my testing.

Playing Arcoscephale, a non-blood nation.
I took a beefy pretender (a dragon in this case).
I used the dragon and one army to cruise around grabbing provinces. I took about a province per turn. Not fast expansion by any stretch.
At any province that produced scouts, I would start making scouts every turn (not counting the capital, I made no hunter scouts there). I lowered the tax rate to 0% and had the scouts do blood hunting. I used nothing for hunting except scouts from expansion provinces. I did zero patrolling. If I had used patrols or had also thrown in cheapie commanders and capital scouts, I could have accelerated the process, but I didn't. I made one mage, whose only duty was to go to the provinces that had blood hunting and place a lab there in order to ease slave pooling.

By turn 21 I had three provinces doing good hunting, and two more that were just getting started.

At about turn 10-11 I made two scouts at my capital. As I gathered slaves, I empowered my two capital scouts with blood magic.

The result? On turn 21 I had two blood-4 mages built from scratch, and was bringing in 20-50 slaves per turn.

If I had empowered mages instead of scouts I could have started summoning big blood summons. As it stands I could do some serious damage with 'hordes from hell'. All this starting from nothing and only using spare scouts (and a few labs).

It is my opinion that blood magic is cheap and controllable to the point of being a major problem.

[ November 03, 2003, 18:14: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Wendigo]

Man, you do have a tendency to dramatization...

So, you found a loophole to circumvent the scout + dousing rod fix, so what? it's not like that is not doable (and much easily, with the addition of dousing rods) in Dom I.

Good that you spotted it and I would support an increase of the blood empowering cost in view of this, but I cannot follow how you conclude from that that Blood will be worse in Dom II than in Dom I.

In my current Dom I MP game one of my opponents crossed my borders with over 20 IDs. They were quite of a pain to deal with, yet a good number of them are dead now and many of the remaining ones are badly crippled...and know what? all the counters that I used will still be avaliable in Dom II, yet in Dom II he would _not_ have been able to summon 20+ of them.

I disagree with your assesment that the counters are severly crippled, I am discovering both new ones & new Versions of old ones.

What is crippled is your favoured strategy of 3 order-prod-growth + Wyrm pretender for hyperexpansion & buriying your opponent in seasonal spirits & lesser elementals....just move on, you are capable of more than that.

It's worth noting also that the big summons are more spread along the magic fields in Dom II, this dismishes the relative power of Blood in the SC race.

I still have some doubts about how the system will work (dispeleable critters?), but one move that I would support is that if one of these unique critters dies, he should stay dead for the game instead of being summoned back.

-editted my grammar

[ November 03, 2003, 18:38: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[apoger]

>So, you found a loophole to circumvent the scout + dousing rod fix, so what?

So it's a balance issue, that's what.


>it's not like that is not doable (and much easily, with the addition of dousing rods) in Dom I.

I complained about it in Dom I because it was a balance issue. I see no reason to stop caring about balance for the new game.


>but I cannot follow how you conclude from that that Blood will be worse in Dom II than in Dom I.

Could be due to the (in practice) lower costs of the big blood summons.


>In my current Dom I MP game one of my opponents crossed my borders with over 20 IDs. They were quite of a pain to deal with, yet a good number of them are dead now and many of the remaining ones are badly crippled...and know what? all the counters that I used will still be avaliable in Dom II, yet in Dom II he would _not_ have been able to summon 20+ of them.


That's a very unusual circumstance.
Plus if he had 7 big blood summons and thousand imps from HfH, would that have really been better?


>I disagree with your assesment that the counters are severly crippled, I am discovering both new ones & new Versions of old ones.


Really! Well that would certainly bear on the subject of balance. By all means, let's hear those tactics!


>What is crippled is your favoured strategy of 3 order-prod-growth + Wyrm pretender for hyperexpansion & buriying your opponent in seasonal spirits & lesser elementals....just move on, you are capable of more than that.


That's the second time you have made this claim, and frankly it's a load of crap. I use every strategy in the book, not just the one mentioned above. I pride myself on comming at the system from every angle possible. When I find unbalancing issues I bring it to the attention of IW/all so the issues can be observed and/or fixed.

You are making it out like I am a selfish git who is trying to protect my one and only strategy. This comming from a player that specializes in blood magic and super combatants. Perhaps you need to take a long look into a mirror.

[DominionsFan]

Originally posted by apoger:
Perhaps you need to take a long look into a mirror.

lol.

[Wendigo]

Scout empowering:

>>but I cannot follow how you conclude from that that Blood will be worse in Dom II than in Dom I.

>Could be due to the (in practice) lower costs of the big blood summons.

This is a circular argument that doesn't hold. If scout empowering makes blood summons cheaper in Dom II, scout empowering + rod makes them even cheaper in Dom I.

>>In my current Dom I MP game one of my opponents crossed my borders with over 20 IDs. They were quite of a pain to deal with, yet a good number of them are dead now and many of the remaining ones are badly crippled...and know what? all the counters that I used will still be avaliable in Dom II, yet in Dom II he would _not_ have been able to summon 20+ of them.


>That's a very unusual circumstance.
Plus if he had 7 big blood summons and thousand imps from HfH, would that have really been better?

Less big targets to kill, and who says that I could not have claimed some of those 7 myself?

>>I disagree with your assesment that the counters are severly crippled, I am discovering both new ones & new Versions of old ones.


>Really! Well that would certainly bear on the subject of balance. By all means, let's hear those tactics!

Soul slay is now 100 range, paralyze is stronger IMO, same with mind bLast, spiders, that maggot thing, missile weapons & in particular the magic ones are more usable, blessed troops, stronger pretenders...probably more that escape me.


>>What is crippled is your favoured strategy of 3 order-prod-growth + Wyrm pretender for hyperexpansion & buriying your opponent in seasonal spirits & lesser elementals....just move on, you are capable of more than that.


>That's the second time you have made this claim, and frankly it's a load of crap. I use every strategy in the book, not just the one mentioned above. I pride myself on comming at the system from every angle possible.

Such hostility...hey, that's what I have seen you do so far, but if you want to claim otherwise I can take your word on it. See? it's not that hard to acept that one might be wrong...can you do it?

>When I find unbalancing issues I bring it to the attention of IW/all so the issues can be observed and/or fixed.

And if you can strenghten your analysis by pointing to the changes in one direction while ignoring the changes in the opposite direction, so much the better, right?

>You are making it out like I am a selfish git who is trying to protect my one and only strategy. This comming from a player that specializes in blood magic and super combatants. Perhaps you need to take a long look into a mirror

Nope, I do not think that you are intentionally doing that with any kind of selfish PoV, yet I do think that your perception of this issue is clouded by your pet peeves. Of course, the same could be said about me, but I am not the one painting an apocalyptic future based on incomplete and premature information. Unlike you, I can actually put myself in your shoes and admit that yes, some old counters are gone.

As per your Last assertinon, funnily enough I kill more SCs with magic than I do with my own SCs, but hey, you are entitled to your opinion.

Same as I am entitled to mine, however much you might dislike it.

[apoger]

>>but I cannot follow how you conclude from that that Blood will be worse in Dom II than in Dom I.

>Could be due to the (in practice) lower costs of the big blood summons.

>This is a circular argument that doesn't hold. If scout empowering makes blood summons cheaper in Dom II, scout empowering + rod makes them even cheaper in Dom I.

How is this a circular argument?
I said it was the lower costs. I didn't say scout empowering was the reason why blood magic is worse in Dom II than I. You are misreading what I said.

Scout empowerment is an issue that needs to be looked at. But that is not what I answered in response to your question.


>Soul slay is now 100 range, paralyze is stronger IMO, same with mind bLast, spiders, that maggot thing, missile weapons & in particular the magic ones are more usable, blessed troops, stronger pretenders...probably more that escape me.

Soul slay - needs the extra range due to larger battlefields.
Paralyze is stronger.
Mind bLast doesn't seem better. Perhaps I'm missing someting there.
Spiders as a counter for SC. Possibly, but I'd need to see more before commenting.
Maggots - Only works versus undead. The blood SC are now demons.
Magic Missile weapons. Possibly, but will have to be seen.
Blessed troops - I don't think they'll make a dent in most SC.
Stronger Pretenders - Yes, but that's a balance issue in itself.

Considering what's been lost, that's not a very big list. I'd trade that all in for Dom I's star fire and the ability to use control the dead and wither bones versus 'demons'.


>See? it's not that hard to acept that one might be wrong...can you do it?

Sure can.
Show me where I've been wrong and we'll get a start on it.


>When I find unbalancing issues I bring it to the attention of IW/all so the issues can be observed and/or fixed.

>And if you can strenghten your analysis by pointing to the changes in one direction while ignoring the changes in the opposite direction, so much the better, right?

I have no idea what you are talking about.
If you can show me 'changes in the opposite direction' that would influence the discussion, then let's hear them. If you have a problem with my arguments then make a counter argument.


>but I am not the one painting an apocalyptic future

And you call me dramatic?

>based on incomplete and premature information.

Yeah, it's not like I did any testing.

[Wendigo]

>Soul slay - needs the extra range due to larger battlefields.

There's a difference between adapting to the larger battlefield & being able to hit from one point of the diagonal to the other tho.

-snip list-

Indeed, some counters will be usable in some situations & some in others

>Considering what's been lost, that's not a very big list. I'd trade that all in for Dom I's star fire and the ability to use control the dead and wither bones versus 'demons'.

You know, if you had worded your argument this way I might actually have supported it.

>>See? it's not that hard to acept that one might be wrong...can you do it?

>Sure can.
>Show me where I've been wrong and we'll get a start on it.

Keep reading...

>>And if you can strenghten your analysis by pointing to the changes in one direction while ignoring the changes in the opposite direction, so much the better, right?

>I have no idea what you are talking about.
If you can show me 'changes in the opposite direction' that would influence the discussion, then let's hear them. If you have a problem with my arguments then make a counter argument.

You said (paraphrasing, ignore tone): 'SCs are going to rule Dom II more than Dom, because these counters are gone'. I call that painting an incomplete picture because you were ignoring the new counters available (or pending discovery).

>>based on incomplete and premature information.

>Yeah, it's not like I did any testing.

No doubt you did, likely way more than me seeing as I often run into Rl time issues nowadays.

Premature because the game is not even out, and when it be released it will be an initial Version that can, (& will be) fine tuned, same as Dom I was.

Incomplete because you are basing a balance analysis on playing a demo with 6 nations out of 14 final ones, and without a chance to test spells over lv4.

This is all the more surprising coming from someone like you, who got so much replay & enjoyment out of the 1st installment of the series.

[apoger]

>You said (paraphrasing, ignore tone): 'SCs are going to rule Dom II more than Dom, because these counters are gone'.

Rather than say "rule" I'd say that they are a balance issue.

The important issues raised here aren't the lack of counters (which is an issue) for SC's, but rather the problems of blood magic being having low cost summons and easy blood hunting.


>Premature because the game is not even out,

It's never to early to consider gameplay issues. IMHO.


>and when it be released it will be an initial Version that can, (& will be) fine tuned, same as Dom I was.

Good. Let's get that process started.


>Incomplete because you are basing a balance analysis on playing a demo with 6 nations out of 14 final ones, and without a chance to test spells over lv4.

This issue of this thread was ease of hunting and low cost of blood summons. Both these issues can be demonstrated with the tools at hand.

The exact measure of the balance between SC's and potential counters will have to wait until the full game can be examined. I have never said otherwise.

If you look at my original essay, you will see that I offer my tests as fact but my conclusion as opinion.

If the full game changes the situation I'll change my opinion accordingly.


>This is all the more surprising coming from someone like you, who got so much replay & enjoyment out of the 1st installment of the series.

And as such I shouldn't bring potential game imbalances to the attention of Illwinter?

Quite the opposite. I feel that hiding the issues and allowing gameplay to suffer does no justice to a game that I enjoy so much.

[ November 03, 2003, 22:38: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Wendigo]

[quote]Originally posted by apoger:
>This issue of this thread was ease of hunting and low cost of blood summons. Both these issues can be demonstrated with the tools at hand.

You will have noticed that rather than addressing just your post in this thread I have been talking about your (broader) point regarding the topic in various other threads.

>The exact measure of the balance between SC's and potential counters will have to wait until the full game can be examined. I have never said otherwise.

It could certainly be deducted otherwise from other previous Posts, good to hear you clarify this.

>This is all the more surprising coming from someone like you, who got so much replay & enjoyment out of the 1st installment of the series.

>And as such I shouldn't bring potential game imbalances to the attention of Illwinter?

Definitely, so long as the aproach is balanced by a look at both the pros & cons, and with a tone as neutral as posible. It didn't look that way, for the reasons previously stated.

I am not apealing at your emotional atachment to the game to turn an eye away, rather apealing to your knowledge that these guys have indeed done a good job in the past and there should be no reason for them to not do so now.

Leaving aside whether there will be more blood income or less, (on which we do not seem to agree), an argument of the type 'These counters have been lost, and the gain of these others does not make up for it' would have been much stronger on your part than the one you initially used.

[Jasper]

I think you guys might get a more productive discussion if you narrowed the scope of debate a bit...

For instance, how do the blood economies of Abysia compare between Dom 1 and Dom 2? How does the income difference between them look when scaled by the diminished Dom 2 gold income? How much worse are the patrolling side effects in Dom 2 than Dom 1?