The docs suck! (rant)

[jaytau]

A bit of a rant: I remember hearing that they didnt want to distribute the docs with the demo cuz they wanted to make it more difficult for pirates.

After I got the game, I have to say THE DOCS SUCK!

There is like 10 pages of 'real' information that is actually usefull, the other 120 pages are full of regurgitated spell and item descriptions. Man what a let down.

It would really have put warm fuzzies in my heart and feel that the doc writers actually earned their money if they put descriptions of the units, races, etc.. Anything EXCEPT the stuff that's already in in-game help.

BUT, I know how it is... we already bought the game, so why bother having the doc writers spend an extra 2 weeks of writing and editing? You have our money, so mission accomplished.

Not only that, but I bet the docs were written months before content was actually finished.

AND ONE MORE THING: since the docs basically suck, why not allow people to buy the game Online? The manual is NOT helpfull enough to be nessicary.

[jaytau]

by the way, i know the 'yes-sayers' are going to say "but the nations and units are doced in-game too"....

that's not what I mean... for example, I've never played Dominions 1 before....

so how am I to know that if you pick Carion woods, that your population is going to drop even tho growth is set at 2? or that most of your units are going to be undead, which are going to require ritual spells and re-animations?

I guess that's kinda the frustrating thing... sure you can figure this stuff out on your own eventually, but 20 pages of docs devoted to the intricacies of nation administration and/or strategy would have went a long long long way.

Oh no! I can't read the in game notes on a race!

Document it!

Don't make me figure it out every different theme or read them when I select them, have them all clearly labeled with exact forumulas for everything!

Just "Yes'n" away for IW.

Seems about as appropriate as ranting on the fact that you have a manual and it isn't as thick as the Statutes for New York with that level of detail.

[jaytau]

Originally posted by Zen:
Oh no! I can't read the in game notes on a race!

Document it!

Don't make me figure it out every different theme or read them when I select them, have them all clearly labeled with exact forumulas for everything!

Just "Yes'n" away for IW.

Seems about as appropriate as ranting on the fact that you have a manual and it isn't as thick as the Statutes for New York with that level of detail.

"Yess'n" : I think forgoing 75 pages of spell descriptions (which are very easily accessable in-game) and including a 5-10 page quick-start would have been a marked improvement.

[SurvivalistMerc]

I respect both where Zen and where jaytau are coming from.

I will have to admit that I initially found the documentation somewhat lacking and found myself wishing I could buy a hintbook for the game until I realized how helpful everyone was on this site.

If you are puzzled or stumped, jaytau, just ask your questions on this board. There are many nice folks here, including it seems to me some of the folks who developed the game, who will come to your aid. Especially if you ask nicely rather than ranting.

What I dislike most about the documentation is lack of an alphabetical index, either in-game or at the end of the manual. Someone tells you xxxx is a nice spell...you have to spend a while finding its description because the descriptions are organized by school rather than by spell name. The magic items are similarly organized by power rather than by name or type of magic.

I actually enjoy finding out how powerful things are in-game. But if you are trying to get into MP, I can understand how it might be frustrating for you if the other folks you are playing with have a better idea of game mechanics than you do.

If I find myself with a lot of spare time over the holidays (unlikely), I may make an index as it is something even a complete newb could contribute to the community, mostly for use by other new players.

-SM

I believe a Terms index would probably do the job and make whatever printing cost more availiable.

Thinks I often hear are:

Sorcery: Paths in Nature, Blood, Death, Astral.
Elemental: Paths in Earth, Air, Fire, Water.

Where the Manual really helps is things like provencial defense, fortress towers by race and their weapons, reanimation and calling spirits, and the nation specific spells near the back.

I would hope they would place compiled lists; as the players have shown to do, as an index; but considering the manual isn't 20 pages of a half-asses storyline and actually provides some valuable information. I consider it very decent. For the player who wants to be instantly 'good' however, the manual is not decent, it doesn't show you how to play the game, just gives you the tools to use your mind.

Edit: One thing I don't understand is why they couldn't put in the cost of gems for forged items.

[ December 05, 2003, 18:56: Message edited by: Zen ]

[apoger]

I like the game, but let's be honest...

The docs are terrible.


Illwinter's philosophy seems to be one of hiding information so that the players can "discover" it. It is my personal conviction that this is the opposite of what software companies should do. I am an advocate of extensive documentation. I think the lack of docs is a disservice to the players and to Illwinter. I think they'd sell a lot more product if they documented their game properly. That's my opinion, FWIW.

I think there are 2 schools of thought here. One school is that this is a turn based strategic game and goes back to the tabletop wargaming which had every rule in the world and forumla and dice and everything for you to do the work. It was required that you have every conceivable rule availiable and documented in order to actually play.

Vs.

Computer gaming in general. Which give you the pretty girl and the flashy lights, but don't show you the dirty underbelly.

I look at the game as a Computer game in general, others may look at it as a old school strategy game.

[Gandalf Parker]

Those who can, do. And those who cant, teach.
Ive heard that so many times I wish I'd invented it so I could get royalties. But the flip-flop I toss back is that those who can, cant teach.

Why mention that here? Because Illwinter is a couple of guys who thought it would be fun to write a game. OK, granted, Dom2 moved into the "real" world with a marketer like Shrapnel (and the pricing) so it no longer gets the "garage business" protection that Dom1 had. But still, Ive had alot of experience in the subject and you dont want programmers/developers to write documentation. They cannot (CAN NOT) think of what needs to be known, and their answers tend to be formulas anyway. They know the game too well to document it. At best they should provide answers to someone who has experience at translating programmer to common english.

Fine. Illwinter should. Shrapnel should. We paid alot, we deserve it. But if you REALLY want it, this is my opinion of how it would best happen. Some NEW player who has aspirations of being a writer should start taking notes. What confused you? what answers did you get (that you understood)? what was funny? what seemed like a strategy tip? At the least level, web site it. At the dreamer level, sell it to Prima as a Dominions II Strategy Guide so we can all benefit from it (and help give the game the marketing boost it deserves)

Just my humble opinion

[ December 05, 2003, 19:08: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Taqwus]

It is a fair comment that the spell manual is redundant with in-game documentation (given that, unlike item descriptions, all spell descriptions can be browsed from the very start with just a couple of classes of exceptions (nation-restricted spells and holy/unholy; you can only view these descriptions once you have somebody with at least one point in all prerequisite paths).
It would have been useful for the manual to include advice on how to play the assorted nation/theme combinations, but I'm not really sure that at the time of release -- or even now -- there's that clear advice on them all.