worlds without the borders

[alexti]

I'm having a difficulty playing on wrap-around maps, because it seems that no matter what I'm doing, at some stage I end up fighting with 3-4 races. On regular maps I would just put some forces on the border with 1 or 2 nations to discourage them from attacking, and concentrate on another opponent (preferrably one squeezed to the border of the map). But on wrap-around map I need to defend whole perimeter and I don't see how I can assemble enough forces to do and at the same time fight somebody. I'm sorely missing some kind of diplomacy.

Currently, I'm leaving some indies to keep sort of a border, but that works only in the beginning of the game. After that I just defend important provinces (big population, major sites etc) and concentrate my efforts to take such provinces away from the enemy. In other provinces the chaos rules, they're changing hands nearly every turn. This strategy works to some extent, but I was wondering if it's possible to proceed in more ordered manner.

/Alex

[apoger]

If you get into a situation where you are surrounded by many strong opponents and you aren't strong enough to take them out, nor are strong enough to hold your borders... you are in bad shape. It's very hard to recover from that.

In future games try to create artificial borders by:

- Keeping troops on the border
- Pumping up province defense in border provinces
- Building fortifications along the border

Furthermore try to develop some armies that can move fast, so they can respond to an intruder.

The computer tends to attack weak spots. Make sure that your provinces look strong, and it will choose other battles... at least for a while.

If the computer penetrates an area, pump the province defense in front of it, and hire mercs near the area.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think I have figured out that the computer will declare war on me if I am in the lead. Even if he doesnt know where I am (or maybe he knows thru scouts and spells but in any case cant reach me yet)

I have done really well by sending help to whichever nation MY nation is likely to have the least trouble with. Such as helping Marignon hold off Ermor, Ctis, Jotun by sending herald lances (which my troops will laugh at later).

I even milked Ctis once after I killed his god and was seiging his castle. I let it take worthless provinces from me so it would stay high on the scoreboard. I kept worthwhile ones but didnt tax them heavily so that I wouldnt show high. When Pythium started moving heavily on Ctis I cranked taxes, swarmed the Last of Ctis provinces, positioned myself all over the borders (since Pythium didnt feel itself at war with me) and mass-destructed Pythium.

OK not a strategy that works as something you would plan from the very beginning of the game but if you fall into it then it can be a surprise.

--
If you cant beat 'em, join 'em.
If you cant beat em or join em,
then at least try to surprise them.

[alexti]

Originally posted by apoger:
In future games try to create artificial borders by:
- Keeping troops on the border
- Pumping up province defense in border provinces
- Building fortifications along the border

The problem with any of these is that these problems start to happen around turns 15-20 and I don't have enough money (to make enough armies, pump-up defenses or build fortifications). Playing Jotunheim I usually get defenses to 5-10 everywhere, 20+ in important provinces. It works against annoying "call something" spells from AI and minor raiders, but it does nothing against strong army. I'm wondering if building "el cheapo" armies and keeping them in border provinces for apperances could help.


Furthermore try to develop some armies that can move fast, so they can respond to an intruder.

I have quick armies to respond which can take care of AI invasion, but I don't have enough of them to deal with 3-4 invasions at the same time. Besides, sometimes it's hard to catch AI army.

[alexti]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I think I have figured out that the computer will declare war on me if I am in the lead. Even if he doesnt know where I am (or maybe he knows thru scouts and spells but in any case cant reach me yet)

You are probably right about it. I've seen AI declaring war on me even if they were all the way across the map and without any remote access capabilities. And all my problem start to happen when I'm in the lead (typically by provinces and gold income). That gives me an idea to only capture big provinces and use them for blood hunting ;->

[apoger]

>and I don't have enough money (to make enough armies, pump-up defenses or build fortifications).

No offense intended...
You just aren't expanding your economy fast or efficiently enough. If you had better resources, then everything else falls into line. With more game experience you will develop that extra efficiency/economy needed, and will find things easier.

Let me ask... how many provinces are you holding on turns 15-20? What nations do you play, and how do you set them up? More info is needed if we are to give you more direct advice.

[alexti]

Originally posted by apoger:
>and I don't have enough money (to make enough armies, pump-up defenses or build fortifications).

No offense intended...
You just aren't expanding your economy fast or efficiently enough. If you had better resources, then everything else falls into line. With more game experience you will develop that extra efficiency/economy needed, and will find things easier.

Let me ask... how many provinces are you holding on turns 15-20? What nations do you play, and how do you set them up? More info is needed if we are to give you more direct advice.

I'm playing Jotunheim on inland map, indy 6, otherwise standard, around 12 impossible AI (pretty much everybody except water nations and Ermor). I haven't played any other nations on wrap-around maps though.

Typically, I would get around 20 provinces by turn 15-17 (usual schedule is about 1 province per turn from turn 3 to turn 9 or 10 and 2 provinces per turn afterward). After that I'm getting stalled though, because I'm reaching enemies on all sides and that's when my borders start to fall apart.
Actually, in a recent game I seem to do better if I expand slower and keep low income indy provinces intact. Anyway, they're of little use until I can start searching actively, but while being independent they provide some sort of protection from AI. One of the problem with the income is that Jotuns suffer very few casualties, so there's a lot of troops to maintain and I have something like 700-800 income and 300-400 upkeep costs. That's why I was thinking about trying to use more cheaper troops. Another alternative I thought about is to use maintenance-free summons, but I can't find anything attractive at that stage given my limited gem quantities. So far the best I could come with is Horde from hell, because no gems are required, bloodhunting eats into my income though, but I'm trying to counter it by hunting in good border provinces which I have to defend anyway, and it also gives a job to wounded units.

[Endoperez]

Undead should do well, especially as some of them are undead GIANTS... And you get 2 undead for every gem you use, and it is only enchantment-1. But as always, limited gems are a problem.

[apoger]

>inland map, indy 6, otherwise standard, around 12 impossible AI

That's just about as hard as you can make this game. No shame in having trouble with that setting. It's very crowded. It's almost certain that this setting will lead you to close contact with multiple impossible AI's very early.


>Typically, I would get around 20 provinces by turn 15-17

That's pretty good considering the size of the map. You have more than your share and are squeezing your neighbors.

Part of the issue with this set-up is that it requires lightning fast play. You need not only to take many provinces... you need to conquer a neighbor early. Absorbing a neighbor early and being ready for more is hard. You will need to defeat that first enemy with great efficiency, taking almost no losses. If you expand slow, or take losses, you won't be in shape to handle the others.

Jotunheim is not a fast nation as many troops need lots of production. Furthermore it is hard to stock up border patrols/response teams with these pricey troops while also attacking enemies successfully. As I said... you have chosen a hard scenario.

I don't know which theme you are using, so I'll toss advice for each;

First, as the other gentleman suggested, consider enchantment-1 and using your death gems for reanimations. Those undead will do just fine.


Joutunheim [Iron Woods] relies on stealth, blood, and random magics. None of this is fast, and won't help much in your situation. It's a very poor choice for this scenario. I'd advise skipping this theme. If you must use it, use a pretender that can handle combat, and use mercs as much as possible. Pick a slow developing enemy and try to target your troops for a fast kill. Hurlers work well versus small numbers of high armor troops such as Ulm is likely to have. Javelinists work well versus light troops like Mictlan or C'tis are likely to have. Good luck!

Jotunheim [Utgard] has some extra options. You have Huskarls that are Ok low resource troops. They are good to mass versus lightly armored enemies. The Norna using enhcantment-3 can cast Raise Skeletons. This is a great battlefield summons. A bunch of Norna cranking skels can often overwhelm enemy forces and take no effective damage. The Seithkona mages can take advantage of high magic scale as they do good research for such a low cost mage. Furthermore they can cast eagle eye followed by Nether Darts. While this takes some serious research, it's a very potent spell combo. A stack of mages summoning skels as a screen, while others flick nether darts, can blow out substancial armies. Norna also have access to Paralyze, which is another really good spell.

Jotunheim [Niefelhiem] must use the blessable giants in order to get speed. I suggest a Green Dragon pretender with nature-9. Getting beserk onto the giants is clutch in order to prevent morale issues, and regeneration helps keep these big boys alive. A handful of such giants can crack independent provinces. As long as you don't take a bad loss, these giants can be efficient.

Well, that's my advice, for what's it's worth. Good luck.

[alexti]

Originally posted by apoger:
>inland map, indy 6, otherwise standard, around 12 impossible AI

That's just about as hard as you can make this game. No shame in having trouble with that setting. It's very crowded. It's almost certain that this setting will lead you to close contact with multiple impossible AI's very early.


>Typically, I would get around 20 provinces by turn 15-17

That's pretty good considering the size of the map. You have more than your share and are squeezing your neighbors.

Part of the issue with this set-up is that it requires lightning fast play. You need not only to take many provinces... you need to conquer a neighbor early. Absorbing a neighbor early and being ready for more is hard. You will need to defeat that first enemy with great efficiency, taking almost no losses. If you expand slow, or take losses, you won't be in shape to handle the others.

Could you give any idea what is fast and how early you need to conquer the first neighbour? At the moment I've conquered my first neighbour at turn 40 (too late I guess) and during the Last 20 turns I've added whopping 2 provinces to my empire. Meanwhile 2 other nations were conquered by other AI, so I'm one of 3 approximately equally strong nations. During this phase I've advanced in death and blood magic, so now I've my borders better stocked with different summons (mostly Pale Riders) and I got a couple equipped Ice Devils. It still looks survivable :-)

Jotunheim is not a fast nation as many troops need lots of production. Furthermore it is hard to stock up border patrols/response teams with these pricey troops while also attacking enemies successfully. As I said... you have chosen a hard scenario.

I don't know which theme you are using, so I'll toss advice for each;

First, as the other gentleman suggested, consider enchantment-1 and using your death gems for reanimations. Those undead will do just fine.

I'm operating in Drain conditions, so I was saving death gems to make few skull mentors to boost research (until getting them, I'm falling behind in research). I was getting ench-1 anyway, so that my death-hags can put some undead on the battlefield (when there's no archers and my giants are on hold in the back, summonned undead seem to work well to soften enemies).

Joutunheim [Iron Woods] relies on stealth, blood, and random magics. None of this is fast, and won't help much in your situation. It's a very poor choice for this scenario. I'd advise skipping this theme. If you must use it, use a pretender that can handle combat, and use mercs as much as possible. Pick a slow developing enemy and try to target your troops for a fast kill. Hurlers work well versus small numbers of high armor troops such as Ulm is likely to have. Javelinists work well versus light troops like Mictlan or C'tis are likely to have. Good luck!

Ahh... My misfortune +3 - of course, I'm playing Iron Woods ;-)

Well, that's my advice, for what's it's worth. Good luck.

Thanks for advice, you gave me a lot of useful info and tips.