Anyone played the Ulm Black Forest in MP ?

[IKerensky]

Because after several testbed in SP i am really afraid of the bare power of the vampire count factory...

Anyone with an experience in MP to tell ?

( test bed by rather inexperienced newby player : first count at T5, equipped by T7 ( and prophetised ), second T9, third T 11, fourth... donc care so much because 3 of them are already a mere nightmare and largely taking back the slow start ( i.e. no territorial expansion until T7... )

Turn/Province: 1-6/1; 7/2; 8/3; 9/4; 10/6; 11/8; 12/11; 13/14 ....

And that only using CV and not trying to develop and use standard army with the gold and ressource stockpile I start having.... ))

That the reason why I am asking for realplay tale because I just cant see a way to stop the 1 man army juggernaut...

[aldin]

I can tell you my current MP game forbade it. Has anyone figured out good counters to BF Ulm yet?

~Aldin

[Coffeedragon]

Originally posted by aldin:
I can tell you my current MP game forbade it. Has anyone figured out good counters to BF Ulm yet?

~Aldin

Can the Priest line (esp Marignon) not handle them?

[PhilD]

Originally posted by IKerensky:

Turn/Province: 1-6/1; 7/2; 8/3; 9/4; 10/6; 11/8; 12/11; 13/14 ....

And that only using CV and not trying to develop and use standard army with the gold and ressource stockpile I start having.... ))

That the reason why I am asking for realplay tale because I just cant see a way to stop the 1 man army juggernaut...

OK, I must have missed a part here. What's so strong about the Vampire Count? I gave BF Ulm a try, and sure, they're cool enough, but my Vamps were very far from taking Provinces all by themselves. Did you give them very specific equipment?

IMO Vampire Counts are out of whack as far as 'balance' is concerned.

Vampire Counts can take provinces on their own as long as you take the right ones Try using your initial gem income in Black Forest to it's full effect. That would be Death, Nature, and Astral.

You can have a Count taking provinces very easily with a Barkskin Amulet, Pendant of Luck, and Horror Helmet.

It's a logistical nightmare very, very early with Vampire Counts in the game (on a semi-small map, turn 8-10, you will be fighting them with your PD unless your opponent has a reason not to)

Ways to stop it are in having a high dominion (so the VC's MR drops so low they can be banished), playing Marignon and using a few Paladins (for Holy Pyre on hit) or fielding a large enough army or good enough pretender to break past the luck/ethereal/life drain they have early.

On top of that BF has an incredible but limited selection of troops (Rangers and Ghouls) and access to stealthy low cost blood hunters, which makes them really start to churn out the Vampires and Lesser Horrors.

With the fix of the Lesser Horror spell, it makes it much easier to take provinces with blood.

It may not be 'overpowered' per say. But you have to be prepared and it can catch you off guard/make your life hell/destroy your economy unless you can contain the VC's quickly. Which is relatively hard considering that, in the early game, you won't have access to the # of Gems, levels of magic, to strike at a VC before it traipses off and away from you. Plus the VC's get really quite nasty when the BF player hits Const 4.

[ January 28, 2004, 19:40: Message edited by: Zen ]

[ywl]

Originally posted by IKerensky:
Because after several testbed in SP i am really afraid of the bare power of the vampire count factory...

Anyone with an experience in MP to tell ?

( test bed by rather inexperienced newby player : first count at T5, equipped by T7 ( and prophetised ), second T9, third T 11, fourth... donc care so much because 3 of them are already a mere nightmare and largely taking back the slow start ( i.e. no territorial expansion until T7... )

Turn/Province: 1-6/1; 7/2; 8/3; 9/4; 10/6; 11/8; 12/11; 13/14 ....

And that only using CV and not trying to develop and use standard army with the gold and ressource stockpile I start having.... ))

That the reason why I am asking for realplay tale because I just cant see a way to stop the 1 man army juggernaut...

The speed of expansion up to turn 13 is not very impressive. I can easily do better with most nations.

Did you use a Blood Fortune boosted with Death as a Pretender? Or a Vampire Queen? Both require some investment of nation points. The former might be immobile in future patch, forcing you blood-hunt in the capital.

Just like PhilD, I don't find Vampire Counts overwhelming. Useful and immortal but because of their low hitpoint, they seem to be weak comparing to most supercombatants. How did you equip them? I can think of way to make them powerful enough but they're beyond the reach of early stage BF magic.

VC can be dealt with in many ways. Other than banishment, they're also very vulnerable to "Dust to Dust" (cheap level 1 spell). Easier yet, just pin them down with a bunch of archers or longbows.

BF Ulm is thematically cool and very stealthy. But they're also very limited in magic choice. Their principle mages have only 2 astral, no random pick. Fortune Teller has only 1 astral and 1 random - talk about Magic-Duel bait.

There are tricks to make BF Ulm a formidable nations but it doesn't seem to be overpowered to me.

The speed of expansion up to Turn 6 is just as fast as any other fast expanding nation baring an instant SC (Like a Fire Dragon). After that, the cheapeness of Rangers and high production of Ulm making your 3rd and 4th armies, to hyperexpand will outpace most other nations, especially when you throw VC into the mix after turn 7-8.

In a good starting position I've had BF Ulm expand without a SC as fast as one with a Fire9 Dragon until they reached that cap then they surpass it.

In a bad starting position they do less well, but better than other nations who cannot mass xbows (Thus they can take Heavy Cav provinces if they want to risk it and know what they are doing).

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Coffeedragon:
Can the Priest line (esp Marignon) not handle them?

Priests are only good against massed weak undead, like longdead and soulless. They are too inaccurate for single powerful targets.

[IKerensky]

Expansion speed can seems standard... except that this is ONLY with the VC, not taing into account the standard troups I doesnt care to use.

And the biggest problem is that this speed is EXPONANTIAL until BF meet the oppenent main army...

For this test build I made a pretty simple FoB pretender, cheap with Blood maxed and some death ( so I ususally get 16 to 20 Blood slave each hunt, alternating a hunt with a research until I reach CON 2 and get only on the blood.. ).

I think the barkskin amulet isn't as important as an Antimagic one, early on. But even just the helmet and 1 pendant of luck is enough to start cleaning indies. Put the vamp in attack rear, indies charge forward to the thrall, indies leader die, rince and repeat.

Afterward you can better equip the second CV and each one after and reequip the first one when he reach a map border.

Having the first VC as great prophet is a nice plus, especially if you care to build a starting dominion of 10. Being immortal and a source of dominion make him extra hard to kill... and the HP boost mean he reach the 100s HPs mark after 2 or 3 fight usually.

I tried with the VQ and even if a bit slower in the slave the ability to add 1 vampire with each VC seriously boost their combat impact. Just imagine 2 or 3 VC operating together...

Priest can be good but definitely not so... VC have extra high MR and enough objet to take care of it, and really like to strike deep to the throat ... Against Paladin I guess giving them the right order will be hard. And dont forget that by the time VC reach a sizable force of Paladin he definitely wont be alone again.

Also remember that if the map is a bit crowded you will have to fight them EARLY, and as each one is a big trouble they will be chain produced by turn 15 at Last and by this time will probably be added with some devils/vampires or other .

And I want to point out I am just a NEWBIE with a week of experiment.. and a knack on statistics and planing.... But into the hand of experienced player...

BTW BF Ulm should devote to construction above all else IMNSHO, forget about ressources, forget about gold, forget about population .. or somewhat. What you are producing is uber vampire, and mages to craft item research better for them. By the time your opponent have them under control.. if they do, your territory will be large enough for you to take on with your more conventionnals armies.

As an example I got several time troups desertion before turn 8 in my first tests, but it just doesnt matter, having 100+ unrest in your only one starting territory isn't even that bad, because in 1 turn or 2 you will be making plenty more.

The Barkskin Amulet is to stop the mass Javelin/Arrow that will often take out Ethereal and Luck creatures by sheer numbers. It's an important survivability tool early on and since Vampires already come with Regeneration you don't have to save them for Rings of Regeneration and can spend them semi-frivilously, depending on the Setting of Indeps.

Your normal army is as fast as any other out there in expansion. So don't leave that out of your tests. If all you had to deal with were the Vampires, it would be simple. But you do not always want to send them solo in against an opponent. And massive softening of human players with Rangers, then having the VC fly in and start letting his fear affect everything, most will break.

The key to indeps and expansion early on is learning morale and how to abuse it.

As for the mages, Nether Darts are just fine in my book, and easy access to communion makes them able to cast larger amounts of different spells. And can take advantage of things like Light of the Northern Star for stellar cascades, star fires, antimagic (an important one midgame) and other nice spells.

Without access to Elemental magic they are limited and you have to take that into account when you are building your pretender. Also I don't like the limitations of the FoB, it is nearly as easy using a VQ, GK, or Liches in order to take advantage of the VCs, while trying to give you a little elemental magic (I prefer Earth).