Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem

Etaoin Shrdlu · #1 May 3rd, 2004, 07:09 AM

I've been watching the Boards and a lot of posters have concluded that the Vampire Queen pretender is overpowered, to the level that one poster reported multiple nations picking that chassis. Since otherwise in this game practically everything has a (sometimess very nation-specific) counter, if people are deciding that the only way to stop a VQ is to have one yourself, this is a very serious problem. Here are a couple of solutions (these may be totally unworkable but I'm trying to help, ok?)

1. The Switcheroo: The players are asked to design a pretender for a (randomly drawn) nation. Then after that's done, the players receive notice that they are now playing someone else's nation/pretender combo. Result: You know there's a VQ out there-- you have the receipt-- and it ain't yours. Now go beat down on your own creation. If you can... (Oh and players must design to less than say 15 design points remaining. We don't want players ending up with crippled pretenders, although the punishment would likely be getting one back... so maybe this is self-policing)

2. (simpler, don't have a name for it yet): This assumes the Game-master can look at the creations. If it is noted that two (or more) nations have selected the same chassis, all of them must redesign to a different avatar. If they match again (haven't decided if it's a problem for landing on a previously innocent one-- some nations don't have that many choices) they have to switch again. If they match a third time the still-matched players have to design each other's pretender as in #1 above.

Is this Completely Off Base, Unworkable, or Just Too Obvious?
Or something else?

Zapmeister · #2 May 3rd, 2004, 07:14 AM

A large part of the fun of this game, for me, is designing and playing a pretender. Playing someone else's pretender would be much less fun.

The solution I've recently used is to create a house rule strictly limiting use of the VQ. If someone cheats and uses a VQ when they shouldn't, it will become very obvious very quickly.

[ May 03, 2004, 06:15: Message edited by: Zapmeister ]

Cohen · #3 May 3rd, 2004, 07:17 AM

If you know you'll play another Nation, why not to do the pretender as weak as possible?
And perhaps you find yourself playing with a Nation you dislike, or you'ren't skilled in (especially for newbies) ...

I believe this is not realizable.

Norfleet · #4 May 3rd, 2004, 07:28 AM

I recall Zen mentioned a switcheroo-style game.

The end result being that usually, the objective was to create the most perversely useless god combination possible, in hopes that you end up running the creation of someone less creative than you. I heard the blood-9 manticore was rather popular.

Besides, Zen says that there's no VQ problem, since VQs are clearly not optimal. It's not even really that hard to kill one, if you know what to do...and there's a lot of ways to do it.

[ May 03, 2004, 06:30: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Cohen · #5 May 3rd, 2004, 07:36 AM

Well, I take the less cost chassis, a Crone.
Assign all scale at -3.
Oks, I've about 1000 points to spend ...

Mmmm let's click on *ready* ...

Who want to play with this Crone?

PvK · #6 May 3rd, 2004, 09:10 AM

If lots of people choose VQ, that just means lots of people think it's powerful and/or want to try it.

If a group of players really think it's too much and wish VQ's were weaker, it's a few lines of modding to tone her down somehow. In the thread suggesting such, I think we were leaning toward simply increasing her cost or her points required for new magic paths (and/or reducing her starting paths).

PvK

Norfleet · #7 May 3rd, 2004, 09:33 AM

I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums. Everyone else sees, "I gotta get me one of these", and tries it. And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.

Pocus · #8 May 3rd, 2004, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I recall Zen mentioned a switcheroo-style game.

Besides, Zen says that there's no VQ problem, since VQs are clearly not optimal. It's not even really that hard to kill one, if you know what to do...and there's a lot of ways to do it.

that its possible to kill reliably the VQ of an opponent doesnt means she is not unbalanced.

If I take a parallel, the German Atlantic Wall was a success. It costed far more for the allies compared to its costs (roughly 2 billions dollars) to the German. You have to take into consideration the direct cost of something, and the indirect cost too, and often the indirect cost is far more important to consider.

Graeme Dice · #9 May 3rd, 2004, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anglachel:
Would be nice if you guys that object to her would try and look for "in game" solutions to your problems with the Vampire Queen rather than "out of game"(i.e. NERF HER!) ones.

Why don't you provide a method for every nation to easily defeat an elemental immune VQ with full equipment, MR in the 30's, all three damage shields, five or six mirror images, mistform, luck, and protection in the 20's. Note that this has to be a solution that works _after_ she has finished her buffing spells, as you can't guarantee that she won't come without an army in front of her. It also has to be a solution that can work multiple turns in a row.

Quote:

You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly.

The insults make you look really mature.

Quote:

If there were no "in game" solution to the Vampire Queen THEN she would need to be nerfed. From reading on this forum, this seem to NOT be the case though. Do a search and you will find Vampire Queen counter tactics galore.

No, you will find tactics that are available to a few of the nations in rather special cases, and which mostly require that she be caught alone so that every spell hits her.

Graeme Dice · #10 May 3rd, 2004, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums.

Note the "Lose his entire army to one". If that's not overpowered for a naked SC, then I don't know what is.

Quote:

And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.

I'm calling your bull**** here Norfleet. She's immortal, and won't lose any magic paths for a death.