Pretender Balance Mod

[Scott Hebert]

As suggested elsewhere, I'm going to try to make a mod that more evenly balances the Pretenders against each other. What I'm going to do is change the criteria on how to assign Starting Dominion to Pretenders.

All Immortal, Undead, and SC (Wyrm and Nataraja, mainly) Pretenders will be given a 1 Starting Dominion.

All Giant/Titan Pretenders will be given a 2 Starting Dominion.

All Rainbow (basically, the humans)and Immobile Pretenders will be given a 4 starting Dominion.

The relatively few leftovers (those that don't fit into any of the above categories, like the Virtue) will be given a 3 Starting Dominion.

Does this make thematic sense? Probably not (though you can make a case for it). It will certainly improve the lot of the human Pretenders, though. The rubric behind the above selections was to try to inversely relate combat potential (as in, SC-style melee combat) and dominion strength.

Anyway, I'll work it up, and then see if anything needs tweaking.

Just a quick note:

What the Developers consider initial Dominion Strength is the awe with which mortals and devout believers feel for their God. The reason that human pretenders have less than fantastic pretenders is because they are 'human' and less mind bogglingly godlike than say, giant humanoids who wield lightning or fantastic monsters of myth and legend. Things that are clearly outside of human understanding and thus can be made 'godlike' easier and have more influence over people than being unfortunately human.

[ June 17, 2004, 17:18: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Sheap]

I agree with Zen in this case. More "naturally godlike" beings should have higher dominion. Balancing pretenders against each other can be done entirely with point costs (and in some cases, path costs and abilities).

IMO what the human pretenders really need is better special abilities. This would both make them better, and more distinguishable from each other.

[ June 17, 2004, 17:25: Message edited by: Sheap ]

[Scott Hebert]

While I feel I understand the current rubric behind assigning dominion strength, that rubric is actually not conducive to game balance. I believe that the mod I am making will offer more choices for Pretender design.

As an example, let's say you're playing a nation that has access to the Lady of Fortune. If you want a 6+ Dominion and 4W/4N/4E (say) on your pretender, it is actually cheaper to take the Lady of Fortune as opposed to the Frost Father. (The Lady has 164 points left at 6 Dominion, while the Frost Father has 128.) This is with the Lady of Fortune's higher base cost _and_ much higher path cost. I don't think this was intended by the designers.

Under my mod, the costs would change as follows:

Lady of Fortune: 100 points
Increase Dominion from 2 to 6: 7+14+21+28 = 70 points.
Increase Water to 4: 8 + 16 = 24 points.
Increase Nature to 4: 8 + 16 + 24 = 48 points.
First pick in Earth: 40 points.
Increase Earth to 4: 16 + 24 + 32 = 72 points.
Total: 100 + 70 + 24 + 48 + 40 + 72 = 354 points.

Frost Father: 55 points
Increase Dominion from 4 to 6: 7 + 14 = 21 points.
Increase Water to 4: 8 + 16 + 24 = 48 points.
First pick in Nature & Earth = 20 points.
Increase Nature & Earth to 4 = 144 points.
Total: 55 + 21 + 48 + 20 + 144 = 288 points.

That's a difference of 66 points. About fair when you take into account survivability differences and the Lady of Fortune's better specials.

Note that if you take out Earth magic, the Lady of Fortune gains 112 points, but the Frost Father gains only 82 points. That means that the Frost Father, at this point, is still 36 points ahead. The Lady of Fortune can raise her paths more cheaply than the Frost Father can, while the Frost Father has cheaper Dominion increases.

In any event, this will be an ongoing work, but the start will be this.

As another way of thinking about Dominion strength... who are you more likely to follow, a Giant Overlord, or someone who was like you and is now trying for something greater? You can give the 'home court advantage' to the humans using this logic.

Then there's also the question of what is more impressive, a 2-headed Serpent that could eat you before you ran, or a mage who can look at you and turn you into any number of nasty things.

From a mechanical standpoint, I don't see the use for any of the humans, as they are right now. If you want your Dominion to be 'competitive' and you want your scales to be 'competitive', you can't afford to take a human pretender. Even the one difference in starting dominion between the humans and the Ghost King makes the Ghost King a better Rainbow than most of the humans.

This mod is for the sake of balance. Unfortunately, some of the thematic arguments will fall secondary to the primary goal, which is to even out the use of the Pretenders.

Scott, not to change your direction or anything regarding your intention. But, don't you only play SP?

The benefits of a Rainbow vs a Combat Pretender are easily seen but hard to gauge and do depend somewhat on game settings.

They are not on a level playing field, but they do allow you to play differently.

A better comparison or 'balance' would be adjusting Pretenders based on the one 'good' pretender that is rainbowish (I.E. The Ghost King) and not trying to match them up against some things that may not fit thematically, or strategically.

I personally would be much more likely to think of a giant 2 headed snake that could talk and do magic as a God than some creepy old guy who can do magic who lived in some big old castle for years. Simply because I have more in common with the creepy old guy than with the 2 headed snake. And mortality is sort of a key component to being "Godlike" in my book.

[ June 17, 2004, 18:27: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Scott Hebert]

As a more extreme example, let's take the Arch Seraph vs. the Virtue.

You can say that their chassis is similar enough for comparison.

Their base costs:

Arch Seraph: 65
Virtue: 50

Their base dominion:

Arch Seraph: 1
Virtue: 4

Their base paths:

Arch Seraph: A
Virtue: AA

Their path costs:

Arch Seraph: 10
Virtue: 80

Oookay. So I would think that the potential for versatility makes the Arch Seraph cost more than the Virtue.

The problem is that the numbers don't help the situation.

Again, let us assume Dominion of 6 (which I have heard referred to as 'standard'). So let's do some examples.

Cost of Air-4 Dominion-6 Virtue: 95 points.
Cost of Air-4 Dominion-6 Arch Seraph: 218 points.

Okay, clearly the Virtue is superior here. Note that any increases to either Air or Dominion will benefit the Virtue more.

Cost of Air-4 Other-4 Dominion-6 Virtue: 247 points.
Cost of Air-4 Other-4 Dominion-6 Arch Seraph: 300 points.

Even with adding another path at 4, the Virtue is superior to the Arch Seraph. That is with a 70-pt. difference in Path cost. Note again that any increase to Air or Dominion benefits the Virtue, while increasing the Other costs the same for both parties.

Cost of Air-4 Other1-4 Other2-4 Dominion-6 Virtue: 399 points.
Cost of Air-4 Other1-4 Other2-4 Dominion-6 Arch Seraph: 382 points.

At 3 paths at 4, the Arch Seraph finally overtakes the Virtue, but the difference is only 17 points. This is not enough to enable an additional purchase on the part of the Arch Seraph (except for 1 level in a 4th path). So we can safely say that the Virtue and the Arch Seraph are equals at this point. Another way of putting this is that you would have to buy 4 paths of magic (at 4) to make the Arch Seraph a better buy than the Virtue.

The main culprit you can point to for the downfall of the Arch Seraph is the cost to increase her Dominion up to match the Virtue's. This artificially increases her 'base cost' to an astronomical level, to the point that the Virtue is the better choice for anything but broad but shallow magical knowledge.

Now, note the difference under my proposed mod. To get the Virtue and the Arch Seraph to equal levels, the Virtue would have to buy a point of Dominion (7 points), and the Arch Seraph would have to buy a point of Air Magic (8 points). Much more balanced from the viewpoint that the difference in costs is accurately reflected. Then, you have a much closer argument for which is better. If you want more than one path, then clearly the Arch Seraph is the cheaper (thereby better) way to go. However, if you want to specialize in Air magic, the Virtue would be better. She has better combat stats and innate immunity to the element's magical attack form.

This is my idea of 'balanced'. You have several equally useful options.

Similar arguments could be made for Lord of Fertility/Bull/Mother of Lions vs. Great Druid, and so forth.

In any event, hopefully this gives you some idea where I'm coming from in terms of this mod.

6 Isn't a standard for Dominion I believe. At most it's 5 I believe. 4 Paths at 3 would be a better estimate (as that is primarily what Rainbows use)

Dominion isn't as useful to Rainbows as it is to Combat Pretenders, because Rainbows do not fight initially, only when they are ready to handle situations and spell research is ready. Whereas the point pouring into Combat Pretenders it to have an immediate economic advantage, wheras with the Rainbow it's a potentially significant gem advantage.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
As an example, let's say you're playing a nation that has access to the Lady of Fortune. If you want a 6+ Dominion and 4W/4N/4E (say) on your pretender, it is actually cheaper to take the Lady of Fortune as opposed to the Frost Father. (The Lady has 164 points left at 6 Dominion, while the Frost Father has 128.) This is with the Lady of Fortune's higher base cost _and_ much higher path cost. I don't think this was intended by the designers.

This Last point is quite irrelevant, since your example isn't meaningful at all: it's built on the LoF's strengths and compares them to the lack of the same strengths on another pretender. You could as well have said, "I want a fire-9 blessing, how does a Crone compare to a Moloch?".

To be fair, you should now design a realistic Frost Father with 1-3 levels in 6-8 paths, a moderate dominion (4-5), and design a LoF using the same magic and dominion strength. Then compute a mean to get a meaningful assessment of their respective values.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Zen:
Scott, not to change your direction or anything regarding your intention. But, don't you only play SP?

I knew this would come up. *sigh* Yes, I only play SP. That is because the computer that DomII is installed on cannot go onto the internet, and the computer (that I'm currently on) that can go onto the internet cannot run Dominions II. It is not because I don't want to play MP.

The benefits of a Rainbow vs a Combat Pretender are easily seen but hard to gauge and do depend somewhat on game settings.

Well, to be honest, I play most often on the settings that are most conducive to Rainbow Mages (Rich, 75% Magic Sites), and I still don't use them.

They are not on a level playing field, but they do allow you to play differently.

Can you give a reason as to why they should not be on more of a level playing field?

A better comparison or 'balance' would be adjusting Pretenders based on the one 'good' pretender that is rainbowish (I.E. The Ghost King) and not trying to match them up against some things that may not fit thematically, or strategically.

As my Virtue/Arch Seraph example points out, I believe that specialization vs. variety should be equally viable. They are not, however. I think I chose the worst possible non-Rainbow Pretender to try to make Rainbow (the Virtue), and it was still better than the Rainbow in 3 or less paths. Under my mod, each _should_ work equally well in a game.

I personally would be much more likely to think of a giant 2 headed snake that could talk and do magic as a God than some creepy old guy who can do magic who lived in some big old castle for years. Simply because I have more in common with the creepy old guy than with the 2 headed snake. And mortality is sort of a key component to being "Godlike" in my book.

Two small quibbles. One, the Wyrm starts with no magic. (The land ArchMage doesn't either, but most Rainbows do.) Two, if mortality is a key component to being "Godlike" (from this I take it you mean that the more immortal you are, the more godlike?), why do the Immortal Pretenders all have low Dominions, and particularly why did the VQ's Dominion _decrease_ in 2.12?

The other option I have is to take the opposite approach, and switch the magic paths of human vs. giant Pretenders. Make the humans the specialists (and let's face it, do they have the time to master 8 different paths of magic?), and make the giants the generalists. Would that be better?

[Arralen]

IMHO a lot of the Rainbow-Mage-Wisdom I read here comes from the days of DOM1.

But with the blesses and all those new sites, Lvl 4 is just too useful.
Lvl 2 on the other hand is quite common on national or even indie mages ..

And getting the human pretenders to Lvl 4 in multiple pathes is too costly, compared to the giants which don't pose to much of a problem at least with some path combinations.

(I found Fire or Water plus Earth plus Death @4 really devastating with blessable troops and mages, e.g. Vanheim, Last of Tuatha, T'ien C'hi)


But I don't think modifying the starting dom as Scott suggest does make much sense. At first, adjusting the point cost is simpler and makes for better fine-tuning.
Second, the problem is not with the base costs, but with the non-existant starting magic levels of the human-sized pretenders.
So give them all Fire, Water, Air, Earth @1 and do the math again ...