An Idea for a "New Nation" (or "Theme" for Mictlan)

[tinkthank]

I had posted my favorite idea for a new nation of desert-dwelling Persian-types

in this thread here

a while ago, but never really carried through with implementing it, because I found no way to include it in the game (it would have to replace an already lovely existing nation).

This idea is basically for a new nation, but I think it would work VERY NICELY as a "theme" for Mictlan, thus being easily incorporatable without extra scary programming (18+ nations). Alternatively, I could also imagine the "Theme" being used for Machaka.
Before anyone gets too dissapointed, I would like to say that the idea will be as different to Mictlan (or Machaka) as, say, Soul Gate is to default Ermor, or CW is to default Pan, or BF Ulm is to Ulm. This will NOT be a blood nation.

Basically, the "feeling" is instead of a fallen Aztec race to have a more Northern American (Oglala Sioux-type) race. Anyone who has ever read Black Elk Speaks (*footnote) will find a few ideas here.

I envision this Theme to be a nation built around holy men and women of unparalleled devotion as well as priest-mages who are masters of nature, and who worship the stars and the elements as well.

1. standard recruitable-everywhere units with
- Very good shortbows, good morale, bad protection, good movement
- very good light cavalry, also with shortbows, no lances, good morale, bad protection, good movement
- Stealthy LI with good morale, bad protection, good movement
- Stealthy light cav
- Sacred tribal warriors: Dressed in war paint and feathers, these mounted warriors are blessed in sacred smoke and ritual dances. These holy men often ride dauntless into the middle of battle, and it has been said that enemy missiles seem to miraculously miss them. (expensive, shortbow, spear, low protection, Etheral -- because of their long training and sacred preparation, these units are exceptionally high both in gold cost and in "resources")


2. Capital Only Non-Commanders
- Sacred Totem Bringer: Dressed in war paint, feathers, and the hide of the Sacred Buffalo, the Totem is an exceptionally strong, specially trained warrior who will never rout in battle and who is blessed with holy vengeance. (Sacred, HI, Dual-Ax, Berserk +2 -- because of their long training and sacred preparation, these units are exceptionally high both in gold cost and in resources)


3. Mages/Priests
- Medicine Man: sacred, N2 ?1, can heal afflictions, capital only
- Shaman: H2 N1 S1 ?1
- Witchdoctor: H2 1?-sorcery
- The Master of the Heavens: H2 S2 N1 1?, capital only
- Master of the Four Directions: H3 F2 E2 W2 A2 ?1, capital only
- Master of Dreams: H3 S2, capital only
- High Priest: H4, capital only

4. Other Commanders
- Very cheap scouts (15 gold)
- Special Trackers: The Tracker is a scout who can follow the trail of their enemies, which they do in-game by receiving the "Follow Enemy" command; this will have them follow a random enemy commander if it moves into a neighboring province (into which the Tracker must be able to enter); does not work in sea provs or on flying commanders, 50% chance of failure in mountains and wastelands. If the enemy commander does not move, the Tracker stays put.
- Tribal Chief: Mounted, Good Leadership, Banner +5
- Assassin

5. Special Spells
- Ancestral Ox: Summon the Avatar of the ancient power of the Bull, 1 very large trampler NNE, supply bonus 10, with a gore and hoof attack, req. 6 nature gems, N2 S1
- Ancestral Herd: Summons a herd of 10 etheral spirit horses, size 3 tramplers with a hoof attack, req. 20 nature gems N3 S2


6. Special Interest Flavours or Notes
- as nomadic plains dwellers, these folk are not particularly good at defending fortresses; every national unit has its strength reduced by 3 for the purpose of defending castles ONLY
- Plains survival (since plains do not inhibit movement, this amounts to less liklihood of starving in plains)
- Most or all of the units should be low or very low in resources

Balance would have to be worked out with unit prices and surely an overhaul of the costs of the special spells etc, but in general, I would dearly love to see some Oglala-type action.

*(footnote) Many of you may find the book Black Elk Speaks to be "corny" or "kitschy" by today's standards, but it really is a very endearing and authentic account of the fall and de-magification of the Dakota Sioux from first-hand experience. Anyone who also wants to see how "magic" "really" works (or better: worked) in particular contexts should really read the book.

[EDIT: Typos, one balance stupidity]

[ August 04, 2004, 12:46: Message edited by: tinkthank ]

[Truper]

I've read Black Elk Speaks, but its been a very long time, so I don't remember enough of the mythos to be very specific, but it seems to me that what you've outlined is very well thought out. Its got loads of good flavor, and it all of it very well themed.

A few quibbles: the Master of the Four Directions seems a bit overpowered with 9 paths. It would make him the best mage in the game.

I might also reconsider the Medicine Man - I have the idea that Arco priestesses are supposed to have a monopoly on the healing business (with the minor exception of the T'ien Ch'i hero).

Assassins don't fit the theme, IMHO.

Nice job! (Gonna make it?)

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by Truper:
I've read Black Elk Speaks, but its been a very long time, so I don't remember enough of the mythos to be very specific, but it seems to me that what you've outlined is very well thought out. Its got loads of good flavor, and it all of it very well themed.

A few quibbles: the Master of the Four Directions seems a bit overpowered with 9 paths. It would make him the best mage in the game.

I might also reconsider the Medicine Man - I have the idea that Arco priestesses are supposed to have a monopoly on the healing business (with the minor exception of the T'ien Ch'i hero).

Assassins don't fit the theme, IMHO.

Nice job! (Gonna make it?)

Hey thanks.
Dammit I thought I edited out my "balance stupidity" (which I had under "EDIT" in my original post), that is way too powerful. (I agree with you.) It may make more sense to have masters of the North, South, East, and West specifically, and have them each with respectively 2A, 2E, 2W, 2F and 1?, but that just seems like a lot of mages, so I had wanted to write 1F 1E 1W 1A 1?.

I suppose you are right with the Medicine Man -- he should lose his healing ability.

I would like to make this, although there is no way I can make additional graphics -- I am thinking of just taking Mictlan's.
Do you think the idea of a Theme for Mictlan is ok?
What do you think for prices?
Thanks very much.

[Agrajag]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Dammit I thought I edited out my "balance stupidity" (which I had under "EDIT" in my original post), that is way too powerful. (I agree with you.) It may make more sense to have masters of the North, South, East, and West specifically, and have them each with respectively 2A, 2E, 2W, 2F and 1?, but that just seems like a lot of mages, so I had wanted to write 1F 1E 1W 1A 1?.
I would like to make this, although there is no way I can make additional graphics -- I am thinking of just taking Mictlan's.

2A 2E 2W 2F 1? is still WAY too much for one mage.
Either make it 1A 1E 1W 1F 1? or split it between several mages.
If you want to, you might be able to split it to only two mages with 2A2W and 2F2E and get away with it, but its still very powerful.
2E,2A,2W,2F in the four different casters Version seems nice, if you feel they are underpowered (no reason to think that though) you can make them 2A1W, 2W1E, 2E1F and 2F1A for variety and general coolness =P

Also, I think that copying graphics is just lame, you can look at the mod I made with my own graphics (which I agree aren't too pretty) to grasp what amateurish graphics are, you could make them yourself or have a real artist draw them for you.

[quantum_mechani]

I realize this is not historically based, but native americans had no access to horses before europeans came. It seems to me if you wish to base it off noth american mythology it should not include cavalry; as myths that do would be quite recent.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[Sandman]

A native North American nation would be nice; although I have to confess I'm not too keen on nations with flimsy infantry.

The suggestion/quibbles:

A level 4 priest is quite unnecessary with such a diverse selection of sacred mages on offer. Doesn't fit the theme particularly well, either, IMO. If it did, it would have a cooler name than 'high priest'.

There's probably a few too many low-level mages; I'd give the witchdoctor the boot. The name is already taken by Machaka, for starters. The random socery pick doesn't fit the theme very well either, IMO. Astral and nature they already have in abundance, and death and blood aren't really very thematic for what seems like a good and noble nation (you say it yourself: this will not be a blood nation). Additionally, the nation is already swimming in randoms, is another really necessary? And finally, the witchdoctor seems awfully like the Jotun Vaetti Hag.

The only elemental magic I would consider for this nation would be air; seems thematically correct, given their stealth, illusion and archery. Giving them access to all elemental paths is way too much , especially when they've got so many random picks already. I'd avoid giving them a reliable source of Earth magic, in particular; it's one of the most powerful magic types, IMO, and not to be given lightly.

Having them as an nature/astral/air nation with a solid dosage of randoms is plenty.

I agree that they don't need an assassin.

I'd broaden the 'ancestral herd' spell to include other spirit animals as well; wolves, hawks, bears, lions, etc. Keeps in VERY well with the theme.

Have you considered making their ethereal units mistformed instead (if it's even possible)? Would add a bit of distinctiveness to the theme, versus Vanheim's glamour and Soul Gate's ethereal. Could be awfully powerful, I have to admit.

I think you should try and achieve more of a balance with regards to resource cost. It's not much fun to have to go 'either-or' with nations that have a mix of ultra-resource-cheap and ultra-resource-expensive units. Vanheim I think has a good balance here, yet still has plenty of diversity.

[tinkthank]

Hey thanks for the feedback so far!

1. Yes, I did NOT intend to have the Masters of Directions have 2 paths, but I am not editing that post again or all of the other Posts will become confusing. Yes, I agree, it should be 1 path in each or split up into 4 different masters, which I am tending towards now.

2. I am not keen on flimsy infantry either, but them's the breaks.

3. Thematic is post-European Oglala, horses were an integral part of almost all parts of their life including religious ceremonies. Please remember that saying "Native American" is almost like saying "Asian" or something, there are so very very many manifold cultures subsumed under this term that no real identity can be brought out. Anyhow, I am taking most of this from just 2-3 sources, all of which includes horses to a very high degree. (Remember "Crazy Horse"? There is some nice folk-etymology on his name elucidated in Black Elk Speaks.)


4. High Priest is a crappy name indeed, I will need some research to find a better, but I do indeed feel a need for high levels of devoutness and lower levels of military might and technology.

5. Astral and sorcery is in there for the Stargazing. I know the name is taken by Machaka, but that doesn't bother me too much. But there shouldnt be too many randoms, you are correct. Will set mind to recogitation.

6. Mistform instead of etheral I would do if this is a balance issue, but prefer to have the feel of "damn my bullet passes right through him!" or "darn he can't be hit at all, what a holy man!" instead of "he can sure take a licking".

7. I almost prefer a non-balance between resources, so that the nation can be played with different styles and flavors -- a Gandalf (just an example) might go lo-resources, hi stealth, with a medium-type fort, ignoring or rarely recruiting the hi-resources one, where a Norfleet (just an example) might go just the opposite, choosing a hi-resource fort or productivity or whatever, or any blend in-between. This may make for less beauty, but I think it increases the "fun" value of any nation. (Think: Ryleh, where you can "either" go sloth (or not) and go thralls, crabs, lobos, illithids, or go illithid warriors and meteorite guards.)

8. I cannot do my own graphics, if I did, they would be ugly, and I dont want that. I dont see another solution, sorry.

9. Thanks tons so far, will consider everything everyone says for general re-hauling.

Are there any Mictlan players out there thinking "What an idiot, why to THIS as a Mictlan theme?" Would anybody really object to this being somehow built in (to Mictlan)?

Any general suggestions to unit pricings?
Any further suggestions?

I dont know how to mod strength reduction when defending castles -- anybody know how to do that?

thanks much

[alexti]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
3. Mages/Priests
- Medicine Man: sacred, N2 ?1, can heal afflictions, capital only
- Shaman: H2 N1 S1 ?1
- Witchdoctor: H2 1?-sorcery
- The Master of the Heavens: H2 S2 N1 1?, capital only
- Master of the Four Directions: H3 F2 E2 W2 A2 ?1, capital only
- Master of Dreams: H3 S2, capital only
- High Priest: H4, capital only

Master of the Four Directions is way too good. Even without the random. Even if it's priced very high, one can just buy 1 or 2 for site searching and access to different paths. Thematically it also feels wrong. Generally, astral and nature feels right for your nation, probably adding earth would also be inline, so instead of Master of the Four Directions, I would suggest something like
H3+E1+N2+?

Originally posted by tinkthank:

4. Other Commanders
- Assassin

I think that's too good for them, and anyway their honour should not allow assasinations. Even spy seems wrong for such nation, maybe they should just have scouts with good stealth bonus.

[Endoperez]

I suggest making Master of the Four Directions a hero (2 in all elements) and making general mages too have elemental random, maybe coming in two kinds. FE? and WA? with ? being elemental random would give them access to 2 in any element, but it wouldn't be too easy (50% change of getting 2 in either of their paths or one in three paths). And linked two randoms would be really great, but are not moddable IIRC.

High priest could be a hero, too. To balance for their many heroes adding many more would be interesting. I would like to see a nation with 20+ heroes, out of which few are truly powerful.

Modding the spell Kithaironic Lion would easily get you Ancestral Ox.

Tracker should be either a scout with high stealth or a spy.


Totem Pole. Astral and Nature, does not move, low hp, vulnerable to fire, mediocre protection, no attacks etc. Either as a commander they start with or as a commander available at all castles, not too expensive for a mage of its skills but has huge resource cost (200+).

[Vicious Love]

Sooo... Why not just give the sacred braves Air Shield?